Rules Help: Shield Slam, Spiked Destroyer, and Two Weapon Rend?

[Brandark3]

Two Weapon Rend states you must hit with both main hand and off hand to trigger the rend. If you have a weapon, and armor spikes as off hand, it's clear how it functions.

What happens in the following scenario: You have a main hand weapon, off hand shield (with associated bash), and armor spikes. You have Shield Slam, Spiked Destroyer, and Two Weapon Rend.

You attack with your main hand, and MISS, then you follow up with a shield slam, hit, bull rush, and trigger spiked destroyer. Which you also hit. Is this sufficient to trigger two weapon rend?

I suspect it is not, but I haven't delved through all the rules yet. I did do a cursory search, and found nothing specifically related to these three feats.

Thanks for your input!

[Brandark3]

Bumping once, in hopes of an answer.

[FLite]

First of all, in this situation, it helps to post the rules you are asking about.

shield slam:

Benefit: Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance. You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn.

spiked destroyer:

Benefit: When you succeed at a bull rush or overrun combat maneuver, you may automatically make an attack roll with your armor spikes against the target of the maneuver as a swift action, using your highest attack bonus.

two weapon rend:

Benefit: If you hit an opponent with both your primary hand and your off-hand weapon, you deal an additional 1d10 points of damage plus 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier. You can only deal this additional damage once each round.

In this case, your main hand weapon was your primary, your shield was your off hand. They did not both hit so no rend. If rend had said "If you hit your opponent with any two weapons" you would be good.

Debatably, if you had declared your shield your primary, your armor spikes would count as an off hand weapon, and rend might work. Alternately, if you attacked with armor spikes as your main hand weapon, missed, bashed and triggered spiked destroyer, that might also count for rend, but both of those start to fall into ask your GM territory.

[Imbicatus]

Off hand weapons are only off-hand during a full attack in which you attack with extra attacks from the TWF feat. If you are not making a full-attack with extra off-hand attacks, you can alternate iterative attacks with no penalty, or take AoOs with any of the weapons you wield. This means that feats tat proc on a hit with an off-hand weapon can only apply from a normal full attack.

In the OP's scenario, the primary attack is the main-hand weapon, and the off-hand attack is the shield. The armor spike attack is a free attack that is made outside of the two-weapon fighting full attack. It takes no penalties from two-weapon fighting, and it does not benefit from any effects that proc on two weapon fighting.

[Brandark3]

Imbicatus wrote:

Off hand weapons are only off-hand during a full attack in which you attack with extra attacks from the TWF feat. If you are not making a full-attack with extra off-hand attacks, you can alternate iterative attacks with no penalty, or take AoOs with any of the weapons you wield. This means that feats tat proc on a hit with an off-hand weapon can only apply from a normal full attack.

In the OP's scenario, the primary attack is the main-hand weapon, and the off-hand attack is the shield. The armor spike attack is a free attack that is made outside of the two-weapon fighting full attack. It takes no penalties from two-weapon fighting, and it does not benefit from any effects that proc on two weapon fighting.

Thank you for breaking your logic down so nicely. I would then have a follow up question and scenario.

In non-two-weapon-fighting, there is no off hand and you may mix and match as you wish. When you are two-weapon-fighting, can you mix and match your off hands, as you see fit? Example: Main hand longsword, 2 attacks, off hand shield, 1 attack, off hand armor spikes, 1 attack. (This is assuming you have improved TWF).

And, then, if the previous answer is a yes...would the armor spikes THEN count as an off hand weapon, during a potential Spiked Destroyer proc? They are in the "official" rotation for your TWF.

Or, for Spiked Destroyer, does it boil down to the fact that the free attack is just an attack, doesn't count at all towards main/off hand, and cannot proc rend at all, even if you have normal armor spike attacks in your TWO rotation?

Thanks again!

[FLite]

Brandark3 wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

Off hand weapons are only off-hand during a full attack in which you attack with extra attacks from the TWF feat. If you are not making a full-attack with extra off-hand attacks, you can alternate iterative attacks with no penalty, or take AoOs with any of the weapons you wield. This means that feats tat proc on a hit with an off-hand weapon can only apply from a normal full attack.

In the OP's scenario, the primary attack is the main-hand weapon, and the off-hand attack is the shield. The armor spike attack is a free attack that is made outside of the two-weapon fighting full attack. It takes no penalties from two-weapon fighting, and it does not benefit from any effects that proc on two weapon fighting.

Thank you for breaking your logic down so nicely. I would then have a follow up question and scenario.

In non-two-weapon-fighting, there is no off hand and you may mix and match as you wish. When you are two-weapon-fighting, can you mix and match your off hands, as you see fit? Example: Main hand longsword, 2 attacks, off hand shield, 1 attack, off hand armor spikes, 1 attack. (This is assuming you have improved TWF).

And, then, if the previous answer is a yes...would the armor spikes THEN count as an off hand weapon, during a potential Spiked Destroyer proc? They are in the "official" rotation for your TWF.

Or, for Spiked Destroyer, does it boil down to the fact that the free attack is just an attack, doesn't count at all towards main/off hand, and cannot proc rend at all, even if you have normal armor spike attacks in your TWO rotation?

Thanks again!

In this scenario, the primary weapon is still the long sword, so it would still have to hit. At which point the shield would have to hit for spiked destroyer to go off, so you would get rend anyway (off sword and shield) and you can only get it once per attack.

I think the only way I would let this work for rend is if armor spikes was your primary weapon. And I am really uncomfortable letting you rotate out your primary weapon mid attack, that just seems like it could cause all sorts of cascade failures in the rules.

[Brandark3]

This aspect of Two Weapon Rend seems a bit vague. As it states, you only have to hit with your main and off hand weapon, but not specifically, your main and off hand attacks.

I think I am going to rule it as follows, within my own campaign, until there is some sort of official clarification:

If you TWF, you may choose which "off hand" weapons you use for each attack, as long as all take the associated penalties. You may not mix-and-match your main hand.

Then, you may trigger two weapon rend through Spiked Destroyer, if the following conditions occur:

Your main hand weapon hits.
Armor Spikes are used for at least one off-hand attack.
The free Spiked Destroyer attack occurs after said above Armor Spike off-hand attack.

Then, and only then, would a main hand hit combined with a Spiked Destroyer armor spike hit trigger two weapon rend.

Any feed back is welcome, but I think this is the ruling I will go with internally...this was all a theorycraft test for a player who wants to utilize said combo for his character.