If you have to jump across a pit to grab onto a wall would the DC to grab hold be the same as stopping yourself from falling? or just the base DC of the wall?
Yes, it was specifically the DC of the Climb to catch your self that I was curious about. The DC to stop yourself falling is the DC of the wall+20.
I am torn as to the appropriate climb check. is it:
1) you are flinging yourself at a wall - little different from failing a climb check and flailing about. (DC+20)
2) A measured and deliberate action, quite different from a desperate flailing about to stop yourself from falling. (Base DC)
3) something else?
|
According to the recent 900+ post discussion on the matter, Acrobatics is used for "obstacle avoidance".
You're not actually jumping, you're more like teleporting, and continuing your movement as you were before.
So, whether you're clearing a 100ft pit or walking up to a wall, the DC to climb it would be the same.
Eschew real life comparisons.
According to the recent 900+ post discussion on the matter, Acrobatics is used for "obstacle avoidance".
You're not actually jumping, you're more like teleporting, and continuing your movement as you were before.
So, whether you're clearing a 100ft pit or walking up to a wall, the DC to climb it would be the same.
Eschew real life comparisons.
Don't be that guy, Nefreet. You're better than that.
I would just call it a simple climb check. Jumping onto a surface and grabbing purchase is a standard part of climbing, to me.
If you're a lizard.
Well, I believe the notion of sailing across a pit right into a wall and expecting to be able to start climbing it as easily as you would when you start at the bottom and meticulously navigate yourself handhold to handhold and foothold to foothold, is downright ridiculous.
When climbing, when do you have to make the more difficult check to catch yourself? When you're not clinging to the wall anymore because you failed climbing it. When you just jump up against it, you're not clinging to it. You're not climbing. You need to catch yourself or you'll fall.
Or just be a lizard.
|
|
I believe the notion of sailing across a pit right into a wall and expecting to be able to start climbing it as easily as you would when you start at the bottom and meticulously navigate yourself handhold to handhold and foothold to foothold, is downright ridiculous.
Don't bring reality into this.
It won't bode well for you.
|
As for this question, I would use the following rule taken from the climb skill:
Catch Yourself When Falling: It's practically impossible to catch yourself on a wall while falling, yet if you wish to attempt such a difficult task, you can make a Climb check (DC = wall's DC + 20) to do so. It's much easier to catch yourself on a slope (DC = slope's DC + 10).I would then probably apply a +2 circumstance modifier to represent the premeditation involved. Realistically, this modifier would vary based on the speed of collision with the wall, but there's really no rules to cover this.
.
Exactly the way I would call it.
I believe the notion of sailing across a pit right into a wall and expecting to be able to start climbing it as easily as you would when you start at the bottom and meticulously navigate yourself handhold to handhold and foothold to foothold, is downright ridiculous.Don't bring reality into this.
It won't bode well for you.
I brought reality into that thread so why stop now?
Wait, what are we trying to do here?
Is it jump across a pit and grab the TOP of a wall? This is no different than jumping across a pit and grabbing the floor on the other side, except the intended surface to grab is higher, making the jump harder (instead of getting your hands to about the same elevation as where your feet are now, you have to get your hands to a higher elevation - the top of the wall).
Acrobatics already has the rule: "If you fail this check by 4 or less, you can attempt a DC 20 Reflex save to grab hold of the other side after having missed the jump." So I would just assume auto-fail (unless the jumper can get both the height and the distance to land on his feet on top of that wall), so just attempt the REF save. If you're nice and you're willing to add a bit of a house rule, lower the DC by 5 because the character is planning to do this instead of having to react to it after accidentally missing a jump.
Now, if the OP is trying to jump across a pit and cling to a wall but is NOT at the top of the wall, then I would say this is pretty much impossible. As someone who has actually climbed brick wall, complete with excellent finger holds and at least workable finger holds, I can say it's a very difficult task, but flinging myself at that same brick wall and expecting to get my fingers in those holds AND absorb the impact of my jump seems to me to be impossible.
But Pathfinder heroes do impossible things all the time.
So I would say this is similar to the Catch Yourself from Falling rule (quoted above), but probably even harder. If you're climbing and fall, your entire motion is parallel to the wall - grabbing the wall is difficult but if you do it, all your parallel motion stops. But jumping horizontally toward the wall means all your motion is perpendicular to the wall - grabbing this wall does not mean all your motion stops - you still keep going, smack into the wall, bounce, have to maintain your grip, etc. All of which seems pretty hard. I would raise the DC even more than the actual rule, probably raise the DC to "catch when falling" by the exact same DC of the jump (e.g. if it's a 10' jump, raise the "catch when falling" DC by 10).
Good news: if you miss the initial grab, you still might get a second chance to "catch when falling" as you tumble into the pit and try to save yourself by grabbing the wall - this time the DC would be normal.
If you have to jump across a pit to grab onto a wall would the DC to grab hold be the same as stopping yourself from falling? or just the base DC of the wall?
If you made the DC of the jump you would then have to make the base DC of the wall to climb it. They would be rolled separately, as it is a different skill. You would only have to make the reflex roll to save if you failed the acrobatics roll.
Don't be that guy, Nefreet.Clearly you didn't follow that entire thread.
That is literally how several respondents told me to conceptualize Acrobatics (and one of the reasons I was having such a vitriolic reaction to accepting it).
It is not my creation.
that was one guy, me, and it was to show you if you moved forward 10 feet you'd still be on land.
since your claim was "I don't believe you can looney toon it in the air"
ON TOPIC
to catch a ledge after an acrobatic jump if you fail is a DC 20 reflex save, i'd rule to use that instead of a climb check for initial purchase.
|
|
I'm flabbergasted. Honestly.
The arguments in the other thread were that you "floated" above the last square of the pit, and then expended movement to enter the next square.
The only difference here is that "movement into the next square" requires climbing, rather than walking.
It should not be "catch yourself while falling", because at no point are you falling. You succeeded at the Acrobatics check and can continue to move unhindered.
Right?
I'm flabbergasted. Honestly.
The arguments in the other thread were that you "floated" above the last square of the pit, and then expended movement to enter the next square.
You were the one who insisted that had to involve floating because you couldn't get your head around the idea that people could just land on the edge of the pit and resume from there on solid ground.
The only difference here is that "movement into the next square" requires climbing, rather than walking.
It should not be "catch yourself while falling", because at no point are you falling. You succeeded at the Acrobatics check and can continue to move unhindered.
Right?
You can't just start climbing after you slam into a wall from midair. If you could, there wouldn't need to be a "catch yourself from falling" section in the climbing rules, because when you fall, you would just take another move action to start climbing from midair.
The very notion seems ridiculous.
I'm flabbergasted. Honestly.
The arguments in the other thread were that you "floated" above the last square of the pit, and then expended movement to enter the next square.
The only difference here is that "movement into the next square" requires climbing, rather than walking.
It should not be "catch yourself while falling", because at no point are you falling. You succeeded at the Acrobatics check and can continue to move unhindered.
Right?
in all honesty, the difference between this and Minos' argument is, this time the next square is solid rock.
|
|
in all honesty, the difference between this and Minos' argument is, this time the next square is solid rock.I'm flabbergasted. Honestly.
The arguments in the other thread were that you "floated" above the last square of the pit, and then expended movement to enter the next square.
The only difference here is that "movement into the next square" requires climbing, rather than walking.
It should not be "catch yourself while falling", because at no point are you falling. You succeeded at the Acrobatics check and can continue to move unhindered.
Right?
Sure, if you had a burrow speed.
If not, it's just a climb check.
Up, down, right, left, or forward, I don't see the difference.
|
|
You can't just start climbing after you slam into a wall from midair.
You're imagining a slam when there is no such thing.
Paraphrasing the giant discussion we just had, where you guys were hammering this logic into my head, and which I finally started understanding:
"You succeeded at your Acrobatics check to clear the obstacle. You can now continue your movement as normal."
In this case, that simply requires a Climb check to ascend the wall.
You are not falling, so there is no need to catch yourself.
Mechanically you make the acrobatics check. If you pass then you make the climb check. You do not fall unless you miss the acrobatics check. If you miss the acrobatics check by 4 or less then you would need a reflex save to stop yourself from falling.
in all honesty, the difference between this and Minos' argument is, this time the next square is solid rock.I'm flabbergasted. Honestly.
The arguments in the other thread were that you "floated" above the last square of the pit, and then expended movement to enter the next square.
The only difference here is that "movement into the next square" requires climbing, rather than walking.
It should not be "catch yourself while falling", because at no point are you falling. You succeeded at the Acrobatics check and can continue to move unhindered.
Right?
Sure, if you had a burrow speed.
If not, it's just a climb check.
Up, down, right, left, or forward, I don't see the difference.
this actually brings up another question, how do you/anyone handle different movement speed types. if you have 30 ft and 60 fly, can you move 20 feet, then fly 60? 10? 20? 40? else when you climb you get a mini-climb speed equal to half your speed if you succeed, and thus how do you handle the sudden change is typing?
acrobatics doesn't fiddle with movement speeds, it uses your normal speed.
You can't just start climbing after you slam into a wall from midair.You're imagining a slam when there is no such thing.
Paraphrasing the giant discussion we just had, where you guys were hammering this logic into my head, and which I finally started understanding:
"You succeeded at your Acrobatics check to clear the obstacle. You can now continue your movement as normal."
In this case, that simply requires a Climb check to ascend the wall.
You are not falling, so there is no need to catch yourself.
Movement as usual would be falling down if there's no ground beneath your feet. Avoid that with a climb check to catch yourself.
It's not rocket science. It's in fact so bloody obvious that I strongly suspect you of being disingenuous out of some sort of spite over being wrong in that other thread.
|
|
Mechanically you make the acrobatics check. If you pass then you make the climb check. You do not fall unless you miss the acrobatics check. If you miss the acrobatics check by 4 or less then you would need a reflex save to stop yourself from falling.
Yes, that, too.
Thank you. I don't want this to turn into another almost 1000 post thread.
That last one was exhausting.
Up, down, right, left, or forward, I don't see the difference.
The difference is one of TYPE of movement.
Jumping over a pit onto flat ground and continuing to move means you're using your feet, walking, running, trotting, whatever, with a jump that occurs sometime during that movement.
What the OP wants to do is start by using his feet to move and then end by climbing, an entirely different KIND of movement, with a jump that occurs sometime during that movement.
I'm assuming he's not some kind of creature with a natural climb speed (if he were, this might not be an issue - he could treat it like a human jumping over a pit). For all creatures without a natural climb speed, climbing is a skill. Climbing is fairly difficult, especially on walls, and extra especially when once is bouncing off of a running/jumping impact with said wall.
That's the difference.
|
|
I strongly suspect you of being disingenuous out of some sort of spite over being wrong in that other thread.
Spite? No. Frustrated? Absolutely.
Had this question come up a week ago, I would have said "Catch yourself while falling". After all that's been said to convince me that you're not falling I can't fathom the answers being given here.
Hmmm! maybe I should have let the fallout from the other thread settle before asking this.
Lots of thoughts, mostly mirroring where I was torn. I like the idea of catching yourself DC with a circumstance modifier. Still unholy difficult (DC38ish). Cheers Byakko and all.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You can't just start climbing after you slam into a wall from midair.You're imagining a slam when there is no such thing.
Paraphrasing the giant discussion we just had, where you guys were hammering this logic into my head, and which I finally started understanding:
"You succeeded at your Acrobatics check to clear the obstacle. You can now continue your movement as normal."
In this case, that simply requires a Climb check to ascend the wall.
You are not falling, so there is no need to catch yourself.
Movement as usual would be falling down if there's no ground beneath your feet. Avoid that with a climb check to catch yourself.
It's not rocket science. It's in fact so bloody obvious that I strongly suspect you of being disingenuous out of some sort of spite over being wrong in that other thread.
Mechanically you are wrong. It is not falling, falling implies that you have gone downwards during your jump (CRB pg443). According to what was asked here you are at no time going in a downward direction. It asked how to handle a very specific situation. The only time you could be considered falling is if you failed the acrobatics check. Otherwise you arrive at your destination and commence the second part of your checks.
You may wish to make this harder, however the rules do not cover making the check harder. They go with the idea that you have successfully completed part 1 and will now commence to doing part 2.
You can't just start climbing after you slam into a wall from midair.You're imagining a slam when there is no such thing.
Paraphrasing the giant discussion we just had, where you guys were hammering this logic into my head, and which I finally started understanding:
"You succeeded at your Acrobatics check to clear the obstacle. You can now continue your movement as normal."
In this case, that simply requires a Climb check to ascend the wall.
You are not falling, so there is no need to catch yourself.
Movement as usual would be falling down if there's no ground beneath your feet. Avoid that with a climb check to catch yourself.
It's not rocket science. It's in fact so bloody obvious that I strongly suspect you of being disingenuous out of some sort of spite over being wrong in that other thread.
Mechanically you are wrong. It is not falling, falling implies that you have gone downwards during your jump (CRB pg443). According to what was asked here you are at no time going in a downward direction. It asked how to handle a very specific situation. The only time you could be considered falling is if you failed the acrobatics check. Otherwise you arrive at your destination and commence the second part of your checks.
You may wish to make this harder, however the rules do not cover making the check harder. They go with the idea that you have successfully completed part 1 and will now commence to doing part 2.
When you make a jump and arrive at the wall, you are next to a wall, not supported by anything to keep you from starting to fall down.
When you're climbing and you badly fail a climb check, you are next to a wall, not supported by anything to keep you from starting to fall down.
You're in the exact same position. One of those situations has explicit rules. Once more, you're in the exact same position. Use the same rule.
When you make a jump and arrive at the wall, you are next to a wall, not supported by anything to keep you from starting to fall down.
When you're climbing and you badly fail a climb check, you are next to a wall, not supported by anything to keep you from starting to fall down.
You're in the exact same position. One of those situations has explicit rules. Once more, you're in the exact same position. Use the same rule.
No the SITUATION is not the same. In the first situation you have successfully made the acrobatic check. In the second you failed the climb check. Only if you fail the first check are they the same situation.
I do not see where the rules require a check to successfully land at you target unless you miss the dc of the acrobatics. You are adding that.
The acrobatics check to clear the jump places you in the correct position to make a climb check. You have to have a failure to commence to fall.
Once you have commenced to fall nothing in the rules will allow you to stop. The reflex save that is used in Acrobatics will only work if you fail by less then 4 on your first check.
The reason I am using "situation" instead of "position" is that the person making the checks has control when they are successful. Control is why I do not believe you have to have the reflex save.
No the SITUATION is not the same. In the first situation you have successfully made the acrobatic check. In the second you failed the climb check. Only if you fail the first check are they the same situation.
You're looking at it the wrong way. The acrobatics check only gets you near the wall, it doesn't do anything other than that. In both situations you are in the air, unsupported, without the benefit of a successful climbing check that lets you stick to the wall.
I do not see where the rules require a check to successfully land at you target unless you miss the dc of the acrobatics. You are adding that.
"Land"? There's no landing in the situation being discussed. There's a wall, no floor.
The acrobatics check to clear the jump places you in the correct position to make a climb check. You have to have a failure to commence to fall.
You also commence to fall if your jump ends in a place with no ground beneath your feet. If that happens, you need to do something to catch yourself. Catch Yourself When Falling: climb check at wall's DC+20.
Once you have commenced to fall nothing in the rules will allow you to stop. The reflex save that is used in Acrobatics will only work if you fail by less then 4 on your first check.
The reason I am using "situation" instead of "position" is that the person making the checks has control when they are successful. Control is why I do not believe you have to have the reflex save.
There's no reflex save at all, just a more difficult climb check. Catch Yourself When Falling: climb check at wall's DC+20.
I do not see where the rules require a check to successfully land at you target unless you miss the dc of the acrobatics. You are adding that."Land"? There's no landing in the situation being discussed. There's a wall, no floor.
I HAVE NARROWED DOWN THE ENTIRE CONTENTION ON THE TOPIC AT HAND.
I think you have, heh.
I HAVE NARROWED DOWN THE ENTIRE CONTENTION ON THE TOPIC AT HAND.
I do not see where the rules require a check to successfully land at you target unless you miss the dc of the acrobatics. You are adding that."Land"? There's no landing in the situation being discussed. There's a wall, no floor.
I am using "Land" to represent where you wish to be at the end of the acrobatics check. I am using it to represent the portion of the wall that you would be at when you have finished the first check. No it is not a horizontal surface it is a vertical one.
There are rules for moving on the surface in question.
There are rules for getting to the surface in question.
People are trying to add rules for after you have successfully arrived at the point where the surface is to actually being able to utilize the surface for movement. I do not find in the CRB where there is a rule for this transition point.
The only argument made to use a reflex save is based off the failure of the first check. So you are basically saying that even when you made the first check you now have to make a save that is not supported by the CRB.
The next point of contention is that I do not understand why you are adding the climb DC to the reflex save? If you are saying that you have to use the rules for failing to make the jump then you only need a DC 20 reflex save. You are not going to be able to move further. Then the climb DC is a totally separate issue. Why do people believe that you would combine them? Again nothing to support that position at all.
|
I, personally would split the difference and say you need to make a climb check at DC+10 (rather than DC+20) For one thing, the DC+20 usually involves you having already failed a check, which in this case you have not, however this maneuver should be significantly harder than just walking up to a wall and starting to climb.
I used to spend 5-10 hours a week climbing. I never got good enough (or brave enough) at it to perform this maneuver, but I have many times seen other climbers make a standing jump from the wall they were on to an adjacent wall, grab, hold, and then start climbing again. It isn't easy, and it takes a lot more strength than normal climbing to do it, but it is hardly +20 to the DC.
I, personally would split the difference and say you need to make a climb check at DC+10 (rather than DC+20) For one thing, the DC+20 usually involves you having already failed a check, which in this case you have not, however this maneuver should be significantly harder than just walking up to a wall and starting to climb.
I used to spend 5-10 hours a week climbing. I never got good enough (or brave enough) at it to perform this maneuver, but I have many times seen other climbers make a standing jump from the wall they were on to an adjacent wall, grab, hold, and then start climbing again. It isn't easy, and it takes a lot more strength than normal climbing to do it, but it is hardly +20 to the DC.
The problem with real world examples is that the rules covering things like "flying" and "teleporting to other planes of existence" This is why I only try to argue what the rules say not how I would use them in the real world.
Other then that I do see this as a viable compromise.