I'm thinking about using the following rule in my games. Thoughts?
In this option, the player can choose the better of two ability scores for the bonuses for these saving throws. Reflex save is based on the better of Dexterity or Intelligence bonus (representing the character’s quick-thinking), while Will save is based on the better of Wisdom or Charisma bonus (representing the character’s force of personality).
The Wis/Cha thing is a pretty common houserule and one that I've employed myself. It makes it so that people who want to play charismatic martials can, which is what I wanted. Reflex isn't as important of a save as Will is but I imagine you'd get much the same effect with your Dex/Int option.
I'm thinking how some class features like Divine Grace will interact with this rule. The same ability score mod. can never be applied twice in the same saving throw, right?
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That's the way Fortitude, Reflex, and Will were calculated in 4e. AC was also the better of Int or Dex, actually. They were all static defenses, though, like AC, not saves. Spells all had attack rolls that had to hit your defenses, rather than you rolling them against the spell's DC.
I prefer that system because I like Charisma and HATE Wisdom as a stat, but it created a lot of weird problems. For example:
-Strong people were only rarely tough because it was wasteful to have both good Con and Strength (though this was less severe than the others, since Hit Points/Health Surges still mattered). But yeah, you'd end up with situations where Rogues, Wizards, and other fragile casters/dps characters would be tougher than the tanks because the tanks needed Strength while the others could dump it for Con.
-The only people that didn't dump Intelligence were people whose class used it, because Dex added to the same number of skills but also did Initiative, so, it was an easy choice if you didn't need one of them. This is less of a problem in Pathfinder where Intelligence gives you extra skill points.
-Agile quick people were always dumb as posts. There were no smart rogues, no smart archers...there were almost no smart people, actually. Again, it was wasteful to focus on both.
-You got to be Perceptive or Social. There was no middle ground. Same reasons as above.
Basically, this system is good to a degree because it stops certain classes from being "stealth MAD," like say the Rogue who seems to only need Dex, but actually still needs Wisdom for Perception and Will, Con for Fort/HP, etc., etc.
However, it also builds in 3 dump stats into every build and sort of teaches you to make characters that are only half functional.
Thanks for the input, mplindustries. Yeah, it's shameless stolen from the 4th, but I don't have table experience to know the flaws of this rule.
And in this system I have removed the STR/CON "equivalency", only INT/DEX and WIS/CHA remains.
EDIT: Using INT in place of DEX to calculate AC maybe is a bit too much to add in the rule?
Using INT in place of DEX to calculate AC maybe is a bit too much to add in the rule?
Too much to have base line, but it would make for a pretty decent feat. I'd personally make a caveat that you can only benefit from the feat if you have no levels in classes that grant spellcasting, but that's just because I don't like to give wizards anything nice beyond what they already have.
Too much to have base line, but it would make for a pretty decent feat. I'd personally make a caveat that you can only benefit from the feat if you have no levels in classes that grant spellcasting, but that's just because I don't like to give wizards anything nice beyond what they already have.
I agree. Thanks for the help.
Instead of giving "best of two" for free, you can bake them into Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Lightning Reflexes, where they can either take flat +2 or the appropriate substitution.
I've already fused together the Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Lightning Reflexes feats into their Improved versions. The feat is still reelevant to boost bad saves.
What I do is allow the feat to grant one of three options:
*A Flat +2 bonus
*A substitution ability score (ST/CON, DX/INT, WIS/CHA)
*A daily re-roll of confirmed-failed saveWhereas the greater version grants all three benefits.
Pretty cool, I really liked it.