Larger-Than-Medium Composite Bows...When Do You Double?

[Taffer]

I am trying to work out the value of some larger-than-normal composite bows, and I'm running into trouble...when do you double?

For instance, the Ogre Mage (Bestiary, p.221) is using a composite longbow with a pull of +7 Strength.

The rules used here are:
- Base Price: 100 gp.
- Price Increase: +100 gp per point of Strength.
- Large weapons double in price.

So, do you double BEFORE or AFTER adding the cost for Strength? If before, this weapon is valued at 900 gp; if after, it jumps to 1,600 gp.

Another example, the Storm Giant (Bestiary p.152) uses a Huge mwk composite longbow with a pull of +14 Strength.

There is a rule (Core Rulebook, p.468, "Weapons for Unusually Sized Creatures") that says the masterwork component is always +300 gp for a weapon, no matter its size, so that is static.

Assuming a Huge weapon's value is x4 that of a Medium weapon, then this weapon is worth either 2,100 gp or 6,300 gp, depending on when you double.

At first, this seems easy...the Core Rulebook says you double the cost for a Large weapon, the composite longbow entry says the cost goes up by +100 gp per point of Strength, so it's also doubled. But then there's that pesky rule about masterwork quality...if it isn't doubled, why should the extra pull be?

This situation is further muddied by the Ultimate Equipment Guide, which changes the "Cost" column to "Price", but doesn't change the wording in the composite weapons entries. :(

In the great scheme of things, this is a very minor point, and not worth the effort I'm putting into it. But, it's bugging the heck out of me!

So, opinions? Better yet, a Paizo opinion? Best yet, a rule someone can point to and easy my headache?

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Many Thanks,
Taffer

[LazarX]

You calculate all costs first and then double or quadruple the final result.

The +300 for masterwork is a MINIMUM cost.

[Nefreet]

It's the same question I posed in this thread: "Which is calculated first? The modifier? Or the multiplier?"

I believe, as I explained in that thread, and which also seems to be the consensus every time this question is asked, that modifiers are done after multipliers. So...

[(Composite Longbow) x (Size Large)] + (Strength Rating of 7) + (Masterwork) = Final Price

(100gp x 2) + 700gp + 300gp = 1200gp

...is my best educated guess.

[Trekkie90909]

Well; lets try a meta answer.

The design team should generally try to make it so that rewards follow the suggested wealth by level curve assuming a normal exp track and a party size of 4. So lets look at what that means:

The ogre mage is a CR 8 creature, so we'll assume for the sake of argument that the party is APL 8. An individual character should start the level at around 33k gp wealth, and end it around 46k gp wealth so they need to earn around 13k gp during that level. Meanwhile the exp requirement is to go from 51k exp to 75k exp so theyneed to earn 24 k exp total during that same time. One ogre mage is worth 1.2 k individual exp, so the party would have to kill 20 sequentially (or somewhat fewer by group) to level. Given nefreet's math the individual gold reward for killing an ogre mage is 150 gp (50% sell price, 1/4 total gold per party member), so after killing 20 mages he'd have earned 3 k gold. The mage also has a greatsword, a chainshirt which (x20) would be worth another 3k gold for 6k total wealth. Finally an Ogre Mage should have some "other" treasure; assuming a boss oni giving something on the order of 3k wealth, and the other oni giving a moderate amount of gold each you could easily hit the 12k mark -- a little shy of expected WBL, but not bad and you could inflate it by adding bounties or having locals reward the party for saving captives.

So lets look at it the other way. (100 base +700 mod)x2+mwk=final price == 1900 gp. Now our adventurer is earning 237.5 gp per ogre kill which comes to 4.75 k gp or 7.75 k gp total wealth by level. Assuming the same rewards as before you hit the 13k mark and likely go slightly over. "extra" rewards for things like bounties, or helping the locals are now less necessary for the party to feel powerful.

Honestly there's not a huge difference if you rule it one way as opposed to the other in this particular example; if your party is running a Kingmaker style campaign where they're not getting a lot of external rewards then modifier before multiplication is probably better to ensure the party is feeling adequately compensated. If they're running a dungeon crawl then again there's little chance for external reward systems to come into play and I'd give them the modifier first reward gold. Finally, if you're running a high RP campaign I'd recommend Nefreet's method, and probably give them even less gold for selling the items (it's not like your average humanoid race can make use of them) to emphasize the importance of interacting with NPCs and playing their characters.