Monsters as PCs - Level Capped or not?

[Zelda Marie Lupescu]

Okay, so I was just reading and while I understand the Monsters as PC rules as written, there is one question I have.

Here is my example.

Say a pixie is CR4, so in a level 5 campaign I make a pixie paladin.

Paladin 1

When we gain 3 levels I get a free level and become

Paladin 5

Then 3 levels later

Paladin 9

3 levels after that

Paladin 13

then finally 3 more levels however no free level anymore...

Paladin 16

Now, the question then is... what happens with that CR 4 I started with... Am I capped at 16? 19? or normal 20th level cap still (pretty sure this is not the case except in lower CR creatures)?

Or in other words, is the CR being reduced by the extra levels, or is it still applied in full... so for a lesser example (the 'lower CR' mentioned above), would a werewolf (CR1) be forever capped at 19?

[Ughbash]

When everyone else in the party is level 20, you wil be 18.

When everyone else in the party is level 22, you will be 20.

When everyone else in the party is level 100, you will be 98.

There is NOT a hard cap at level 20 and the core rules even has text to tell you how to go beyond it, HOWEVER if your group CAPS levels at 20, you SHOULD be stuck at 18 and the werewolf (cr1) SHOULD be stuck at 19.

[Zelda Marie Lupescu]

The core rules to go beyond 20 are all optional and there is many ways to do it, so my question is assuming a level 20 cap.

That said... your math is off... why would the werewolf be stuck at 19 if the Pixie is stuck at 18? If we ARE reducing CR then the werewolf's CR1 is removed completely after the first 3 levels gained and the Pixie even then would be capped at 19 too then, as the 4 is reduced to 3 then reduced to 2 then reduced to 1. (You do the 'free level' 1 time, then additional times equal to half the original CR... so for a pixie that's 1, then 2 more for a total of 3 'free levels')

Either the CR is reduced and the Pixie is capped at 19, or it is not reduced and the pixie is capped at 16.

Either the CR is reduced and the werewolf is capped at 20 like everyone else, or the CR is not reduced and the werewolf is capped at 19.

[Ughbash]

CR 1 never gets reduced.

Cr 2 gets reduce to 1.

Cr 3 gets reduced to 2.

Cr 4 gets reduced to 2.

So always try to pick somehting iwht an even CR.

bestiary wrote:

It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by he

group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster’s CR, rounded down.

CR 1 divided by 2 rounds down to 0 so you never do the process.

Cr 2 divided by 2 rounds down to 1 so you do the process 1 time.

Cr 3 divided by 2 rounds down to 1 so you do the process 1 time.

Cr 4 divided by 2 rounds down to 2 so you do the process 2 time.

So at level 20 a CR1 race would have 19 levels.

At level 20 a CR4 race would have 18 levels.

[kyrt-ryder]

Ughbash wrote:

CR 1 never gets reduced.

Cr 2 gets reduce to 1.

Cr 3 gets reduced to 2.

Cr 4 gets reduced to 2.

So always try to pick somehting iwht an even CR.

Or acquire a +1 CR template on an odd CR creature

[Ughbash]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Ughbash wrote:

CR 1 never gets reduced.

Cr 2 gets reduce to 1.

Cr 3 gets reduced to 2.

Cr 4 gets reduced to 2.

So always try to pick somehting iwht an even CR.

Or acquire a +1 CR template on an odd CR creature

Yes, for example a Doppelganger is CR 3... an ADVANCED doppelganger is CR 4 :)

[Ravingdork]

Technically, those rules don't really apply to templates as far as I know. How to properly balance a character with a template is outside of the known rules I think.

[kyrt-ryder]

Templates are typically considered a modification of the base creature.

In the example above, an Advanced Doppleganger is a CR 4 creature, not a '+1 template CR 3 creature' so to speak.

Granted all of these rules are in the purview of the GM and not locked down primary rules.

[Zelda Marie Lupescu]

Where does it say a CR 1 creature does not follow the Monsters as PCs rules but a CR 2+ does?

It says REPEAT this process... You have to do something first before you can repeat it. So a CR 1 creature would do it that one time, then repeat it 0 times.

[Ughbash]

Zelda Marie Lupescu wrote:

Where does it say a CR 1 creature does not follow the Monsters as PCs rules but a CR 2+ does?

It says REPEAT this process... You have to do something first before you can repeat it. So a CR 1 creature would do it that one time, then repeat it 0 times.

Interesting interpretation... I can see it either way.

You way would basically give 1 more reduction then the way I read it.

[Zelda Marie Lupescu]

Ughbash wrote:

Zelda Marie Lupescu wrote:

Where does it say a CR 1 creature does not follow the Monsters as PCs rules but a CR 2+ does?

It says REPEAT this process... You have to do something first before you can repeat it. So a CR 1 creature would do it that one time, then repeat it 0 times.

Interesting interpretation... I can see it either way.

You way would basically give 1 more reduction then the way I read it.

Okay, so either way you see it as the level adjustment is REMOVED... So either capped at 19 or capped at 18... the pixie would not be capped at 16 though?

[kyrt-ryder]

Zelda Marie Lupescu wrote:

Ughbash wrote:

Zelda Marie Lupescu wrote:

Where does it say a CR 1 creature does not follow the Monsters as PCs rules but a CR 2+ does?

It says REPEAT this process... You have to do something first before you can repeat it. So a CR 1 creature would do it that one time, then repeat it 0 times.

Interesting interpretation... I can see it either way.

You way would basically give 1 more reduction then the way I read it.

Okay, so either way you see it as the level adjustment is REMOVED... So either capped at 19 or capped at 18... the pixie would not be capped at 16 though?

Correct.

[Zelda Marie Lupescu]

Okay, thanks yeah that's how I've always done it but making a pixie paladin I found myself wondering if she should be capped at 16 or 18 (based on the way I'm doing it, that 'gotta do it before you can repeat it' interpretation :) )

[kyrt-ryder]

I suspect that's an error, it would mean CR 2 creatures would wind up having the same number of levels as core races.

The 1/2 CR total LA buyoff rule is the closest to balanced.

[The Human Diversion]

I'm running a home game with a nymph oracle and a pixie ninja, so this thread is interesting to me.

[Zelda Marie Lupescu]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

I suspect that's an error, it would mean CR 2 creatures would wind up having the same number of levels as core races.

The 1/2 CR total LA buyoff rule is the closest to balanced.

Suspect it's an error, house rule it, but... that's what it says, and in a way it does make sense because the reason for it is that those extra abilities don't mean as much at later levels when everybody has better stuff anyway.

[Ravingdork]

Yeah, racial abilities rarely compare to what you're giving up from a class, not in the long run at least.