Diabloist's Imp animal companion + Improved familiar


Rules Questions

The Exchange

so, this question again, although with a slightly different take.

animal companion and familiars don't mix, because familiars change the animal to magical beast.
however, given the diabolist gives you an Imp as if it were an animal companion based on caster level, and same caster takes imp familiar feat and chooses imp.

shouldn't these two abilities stack?

rules say that a paladin/ranger can stack their abilities because the creature qualifies for both classes.
monstrous mount and animal companion stack only if the animal chosen is within both lists.

same logic applies here.
imp falls within both class ability categories, therefore, it should be allowed to qualify for both abilities.

Grand Lodge

Nope.

End result, two Imps.

Grand Lodge

Well, far as I can tell.

It's is just like having a Dire Rat Animal Companion, and a Dire Rat Improved Familiar.

The Exchange

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Well, far as I can tell.

It's is just like having a Dire Rat Animal Companion, and a Dire Rat Improved Familiar.

except it isn't, as your dire rat familiar becomes a magical beast, therefore, it isn't allowed to be an animal companion


Dysfunction wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Well, far as I can tell.

It's is just like having a Dire Rat Animal Companion, and a Dire Rat Improved Familiar.

except it isn't, as your dire rat familiar becomes a magical beast, therefore, it isn't allowed to be an animal companion

... So?

They're two difrent rules, from two different sorcres.

There's no reason they'd stack.

Grand Lodge

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You should take a cassisian (or other angel) as the improved familiar. Then they can both sit on your shoulders and give you advice!

Grand Lodge

Okay, another example:

You have a Celestial Dire Rat Animal Companion, and a Dire Rat Familiar, because you have the Celestial Servant feat.

Do you have one Celestial Dire Rat, that is both full Familiar, and full Animal Companion, or two Celestial Dire Rats?

Answer: Two Rats.

As far as I know, you can get an Animal Companion/Familiar as one, is through a Shaman class feature, at 20th level.


Dysfunction wrote:
... animal companion and familiars don't mix, because familiars change the animal to magical beast.

No they don't mix because they are two separate and unrelated class features. It has nothing to do with animal companions being magical beasts.

Dysfunction wrote:

rules say that a paladin/ranger can stack their abilities because the creature qualifies for both classes.

monstrous mount and animal companion stack only if the animal chosen is within both lists.

They stack for those classes because the creatures are the same class feature for both classes: Animal Companion.

If for some reason a Paladin had an animal companion and a Ranger had a familiar they would not stack since the class features are different.

Familiars are not animal companions and animal companions are not familiars. They are two separate (though admittedly similar in many concepts) class features with separate names, powers and abilities.

Much like Arcane Magic is magic and Divine Magic is magic but Wizards cannot cast divine magic spells and Clerics cannot cast arcane magic spells.

As far as the Diabolist goes, the Imp Companion class feature would stack with nothing since no one else has an Imp Companion class feature.

Lastly, a diabolist on his own does not even qualify for improved familiar since the prerequisite is the Familiar class feature which the Diabolist does not have. If it has it from his/her previous class then the familiar would be locked at that classes last level gained since the Diabolist PrC does not advance that class feature.

The Exchange

Gilfalas wrote:

Much like Arcane Magic is magic and Divine Magic is magic but Wizards cannot cast divine magic spells and Clerics cannot cast arcane magic spells.

I like this, that makes sense.

Gilfalas wrote:
Lastly, a diabolist on his own does not even qualify for improved familiar since the prerequisite is the Familiar class feature which the Diabolist does not have. If it has it from his/her previous class then the familiar would be locked at that classes last level gained since the Diabolist PrC does not advance that class feature.

Anyone can have a familiar. Every class has the option to take Eldritch Heritage followed with the Arcane bloodline.

If you want to boost it, take Boon Companion for the additional level cap.


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They don't stack. And, really, that's a good thing. The Diabolist's imp companion is already excellent. (I mean, if it dies, it costs *nothing* to replace. You just wait 24 hours and another one flies in the window.) Stacking it with a familiar would be kind of overpowered. Also, taking the familiar and the companion together can lead to some weird and interesting tactics:

* * *

Play a caster with a familiar. Throw a feat at improved familiar to get an imp. It's helpful, but not necessary, if you're human and choose the Eye for Talent alternate racial (+2 on any ability score for familiars and companions.) Max out your ranks in Intimidate. Your imp familiar gets to use these ranks.

Now dip a level of Diabolist. Hey, you just got an imp companion! Now you have two imps, one one each shoulder.

Unfortunately, Intimidate is not a class skill for imps. And worse yet, as Tiny creatures imps will suffer -4 on their Intimidate (demoralize) checks against all larger creatures. That sounds pretty bad. But on the other hand, two imps means you get to check twice! Leverage this. Let's say you took Eye for Talent -- +2 Cha for each imp. And then have each imp take Skill Focus (Intimidate).

How does this play out in practice? Well, at level N each imp will have N ranks. So up until 10th level, their Intimidate checks will be at N+2 (+3 for their 16 Cha, +3 for the feat, -4 for their size). At 9th level, that's two checks at +11. What are some typical demoralize DCs for monsters you might face at this level? Rakshasa, 21; nosferatu, 22; young adult black dragon, 25; frost giant, 26. With two checks at +11, your odds of demoralizing these guys are, rakshasa - 80%, nosferatu - 75%, dragon - 51%, and giant - 44%.

That's actually pretty good. And once you hit 10th level and your imps pick up an additional +3 from the feat, your odds get very nice indeed. You have a well better than even chance of demoralizing any monster of your CR, and a near certainty of success against large groups of lower level (CR -2 or -3) mooks. I wouldn't say this is a fantastic tactic; it requires a bit of planning and investment. But it's definitely viable, especially at level 11 and up. Intimidate is a fine debuff (-2 on attacks and saves) that ignores SR and all other defensive abilities. And of course, there's the visual: you walk into a room full of monsters, and your two imps start jumping up and down on your shoulders, screeching like insane apes, and all the monsters become demoralized...

cheers,

Doug M.

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