| jbadams |
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
My roleplaying group aren't sure how the Beastform Mutagen abilities of the Beastmorph Alchemist archetype works. You can find the Beastmorph Archetype in Ultimate Combat pages 24-25, or online in the PRD, but I'll quote the relevant abilities here for your convenience:
Improved Beastform Mutagen: At 6th level, a beastmorph's mutagen grants him additional abilities and options. The alchemist gains his choice of two of the abilities listed in the beast shape I spell, which persist as long as the mutagen. He may select two different abilities each time he creates a mutagen. This ability replaces swift poisoning.
Greater Beastform Mutagen: At 10th level, a beastmorph's mutagen grants him three of the abilities listed in the beast shape II spell, which persist as long as the mutagen. He may select three different abilities each time he creates a mutagen. This ability replaces poison resistance +2, +4, and +6, as well as poison immunity.
Grand Beastform Mutagen: At 14th level, a beastmorph's mutagen grants him four of the abilities listed in the beast shape III spell, which persist as long as the mutagen. He may select four different abilities each time he creates a mutagen. This ability replaces persistent mutagen.
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Our question in brief: Do the additional abilities granted at each level "stack", or do they replace the lower tiers?
i.e. would a level 14 Beastmorph apply ten abilities to their mutagen or only the four from Grand Beastform Mutagen?
By my reading we would apply all ten abilities, based on the following:
- The text does not mention lower tiers being replaced.
- You continue to lose additional base-class abilities.
- This is a single effect, not multiple polymorph spells or similar, so my interpretation is that normal stacking rules and the rules about multiple polymorph spells don't apply.
My searching turned up multiple inconclusive discussions with no input from the design team, all seeming to boil down to people arguing that stacking and/or polymorph rules should apply, and others arguing against them.
A repeat of previous conversations isn't really conclusive, so I would appreciate if any arguments that polymorph or stacking rules should apply can cite similar examples or an official source.
Thanks for your time and consideration!
| kestral287 |
Before anything else, the intent is glaringly obvious: four. Is a player seriously contending that he gets ten abilities off of this and a GM is thinking about letting him?
Abilities-- read as "class features", not Polymorph effects-- that stack will always, without fail, explain how they stack. The Beastform Mutagen does not. Treat it like you would Vital Strike, which also never explicitly says "Improved Vital Strike overwrites Vital Strike". But you're going to have a hell of a time convincing a GM that Greater Vital Strike lets you multiply your damage by nine instead of by four.
| jbadams |
Before anything else, the intent is glaringly obvious: four.
Sorry, but it's not 'glaringly obvious' to any of the players in our group or to any of the people who have previously asked similar questions.
Treat it like you would Vital Strike, which also never explicitly says "Improved Vital Strike overwrites Vital Strike". But you're going to have a hell of a time convincing a GM that Greater Vital Strike lets you multiply your damage by nine instead of by four.
Ok, so that's a good similar example that may apply - it's a great rather than class feature, but does show similar progression. If that's the case it seems like a very expensive set of upgrades given the class features you continue to trade off.
I'll look for some examples of stacking class abilities to see how they're explicitly worded as you've suggested.
Thanks for responding. :)
| thejeff |
Or think of it this way: Once you're 14th level, you can make a Grand Beastform Mutagen, which does precisely what it says - grants you 4 of the listed abilities.
You could might still be able to make a Greater Beastform Mutagen, which would grant you 3.
What you can't do is make both at the same time to grant you 7.
| Cap. Darling |
That does seem logical; If that's the case I guess it's just a very weak (if strongly flavoured) archetype given all the class features that are traded away.
i think it is among the strongest Archtypes for the alchemist. If you look at what it trades away and what it gets:)
| kestral287 |
That does seem logical; If that's the case I guess it's just a very weak (if strongly flavoured) archetype given all the class features that are traded away.
It's actually THE strongest archetype.
You trade away class features that aren't very good. Unless you're using Unchained's poison rules, and maybe not even then, you'll probably never touch a poison. And Alchemical items fall off in usefulness incredibly quickly, so having a lot of them isn't really... yanno, helpful. So the only strong ability lost is Persistent Mutagen, which shows up in the late game... and not really all that critical anyway, though it is useful.
In exchange, you get a rotating array of abilities that include some of the traditionally-strong features like Pounce and Flight and tons of niche potential-- oh, this fight is underwater? No problem. We need someone to track a scent? No problem!
The traditional melee beatstick Alchemist uses Beastmorph and Vivisectionist in conjunction, and while it gets raw damage from the Vivisectionist, it gets its real power from Beastmorph.