[PFS] How does pounce work?

[Aydin D'Ampfer]

This question recently came up for me, as I am building a Skald who will be giving the Greater Beast Totem ability along with his Raging Song.

So, questions:

1) Does every attack get the +2 Charge bonus to hit?
2) Does every attack benefit from things that call out a 'charge attack'?
3) Is there a difference between how pounce works if you use natural attacks vs normal iterative attacks?

I have heard yes and no for all of these, so text or offical calls would be nice.

Relevent text:

Charge:

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.

If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.

You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.

If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.

Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.

Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.

Lances and Charge Attacks: A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.

Weapons Readied against a Charge: Spears, tridents, and other weapons with the brace feature deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.

Pounce:

When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

Pounce Blog FAQ:

Pounce (Bestiary, page 302): If have this ability, can I make iterative attacks with weapons as part of my full attack?

Any attack sequence you can perform as a full attack is allowed as part of the charge-pounce-full attack. For example, a barbarian with the greater beast totem rage power gains pounce universal monster ability and could make iterative attacks with manufactured weapons as part of her charge-pounce-full attack.

Lance/Pounce FAQ:

Lance: If I have the pounce ability and I charge with a lance, do my iterative lance attacks get the lance's extra damage multiplier from charging?
No, it doesn’t makes sense that those iterative attacks gain the damage bonus. To make that second attack, you have to pull the lance back and stab forward again, and that stab doesn’t have the benefit of the charge’s momentum. (The Core Rulebook doesn’t state that you only get the damage multiplier on the first attack with a lance because when the Core Rulebook was published, there was no way for a PC to charge and get multiple attacks with a weapon in the same round, so that combination didn’t need to be addressed.)

Horn of the Criosphinx:

Whenever you make a successful charge attack while wielding a two-handed weapon in both hands, add two times your Strength bonus to the damage roll.

[Charon's Little Helper]

1. Yes
2. Yes (There was a barbarian lance pounce build floating about for a bit.)
3. No.

[Nefreet]

Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:

Is there a difference between how pounce works if you use natural attacks vs normal iterative attacks?

No. When you pounce, you can make a full attack. If your full attack includes manufactured weapons and natural attacks, nothing will prevent you from doing that same full attack after a pounce.

I'd answer the first two, but my knowledge on that isn't keen. I *thought* only your first attack benefitted from a charge, but perhaps I am only thinking of the Lance FAQ you quoted.

[Aydin D'Ampfer]

Thanks for the quick replies, but I am afraid you have served to highlight the problem.

@Charon's Little Helper: Could you point me to any rules that help make your case a little stronger? I included as much official information as I could related to the discussion, but it is highly likely I missed something.

[Chess Pwn]

1) I say it's not clear but you'll probably be allowed to
2) Not so much, only the first attack is a charge for the lance, and probably other abilities.
3) nope, it's a normal full attack as if you didn't move, so you could do weapon an natural attacks if you have them.

[Nefreet]

Since charge dictates that you only receive a single attack, at +2, and nothing else specifically states that the other attacks also gain this bonus, it would seem to reason that only the first attack in your pounce sequence can be made at +2.

Permissive rules and all. And that reasoning lines up with the Lance/Pounce FAQ.

Edit: though, as I said, I'm not keen on this question, and I know it's been had before. Perhaps someone else will come along with a clarifying quote.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:

@Charon's Little Helper: Could you point me to any rules that help make your case a little stronger? I included as much official information as I could related to the discussion, but it is highly likely I missed something.

Sorry - I again fell into my issue of assuming people know what I'm thinking instead of just what I actually write.

For the lance specifically - due to the FAQ - it doesn't work for x2 damage. However - the FAQ wasn't a general comment on pounces - it was specifically for lances. So - while the lance would only work for the first swing, Spirited Charge would work for all of them.

Even in said FAQ - they basically admit that it's actually an errata due to new rules. (Hence my usage of 'used' as to the barbarian lance pounce build - before said errata.) Thus the implication is that similar things would work for all attacks until they write more errata.

[Aydin D'Ampfer]

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:

@Charon's Little Helper: Could you point me to any rules that help make your case a little stronger? I included as much official information as I could related to the discussion, but it is highly likely I missed something.

Sorry - I again fell into my issue of assuming people know what I'm thinking instead of just what I actually write.

For the lance specifically - due to the FAQ - it doesn't work for x2 damage. However - the FAQ wasn't a general comment on pounces - it was specifically for lances. So - while the lance would only work for the first swing, Spirited Charge would work for all of them.

Even in said FAQ - they basically admit that it's actually an errata due to new rules. (Hence my usage of 'used' as to the barbarian lance pounce build - before said errata.) Thus the implication is that similar things would work for all attacks until they write more errata.

I guess the question that has been raised is whether or not the lance-pounce is a specific exception to the rules, or meant as a template for all such abilities. This is, unfortunately, where the rules and rulings fail to provide either RAW or RAI.