Greater Beast totem and Grapple action economy?


Rules Questions


1. Does a grapple counts as a maintain on that round?
2. if not on 1 can that character do maintain on his move action because of greater grapple? I dont see why you couldnt because the grapple rules says "you can take any action that doesn’t require two hands to perform,"
3. can a character grapple someone as a move action with his greater grapple?
4. can a character grapple as a swift action because of rapid grapple if he fails on his move action grapple maintain but succeds on his standard action grapple maintain?
5. Greater beast totem says it can make a pounce at end of a charge does that mean that someone who have it can make everything that is a charge (move + attack) to make a full attack after that attack? essentially giving one extra attack. or is it just greater beast totem that is weird worded?
6. Can that character with pounce substitute one of the attack for a bull rush?"You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack."


Since Initiating a Grapple is a Standard Action and not an Attack Action, I don't think you can normally make a Grapple as part of a Pounce. Since you Moved as part of the Charge, You wouldn't be able to use Greater Grapple to Grapple as a Move Action, and I'm pretty sure Rapid Grapple only activates on a round where you used Greater Grapple.

If you want to Initiate a Grapple as part of a Charge, you need something like Grab or a Witch's White Hair. Since you are getting Beast Totem Rage Powers, maybe the party druid can Bless you with Lock Jaw on your Claws, and there's Grab. You could also take the Hamatula Strike Feat, plus maybe Grabbing Style to eliminate the -4.


1. Assuming you mean to ask if initiating a grapple counts as maintaining a grapple: No.
2. I am fairly sure you can maintain as a move action if you initiated on that turn. IN the least, I cannot at the moment point to a rule saying you cannot, though I'll continue looking.
3. You cannot initiate a grapple as a move action with Greater Grapple.
4. [Edit] Agreeing with Aydin on this one after re-reading.
5. Greater Beast totem allows you to pounce. This means that you can make a full attack instead of a single attack at the end of a charge. There is no language allowing for an extra attack.
6. You could make a bull rush or the full attack at the end of the charge.

Grand Lodge

Lodrak wrote:
1. Does a grapple counts as a maintain on that round?

Yes. Assuming you mean "If I have the option to grapple, but not specifically called out as maintaining the grapple, does it let me maintain a grapple outside of spending a standard action". This allows you to use the move action of Greater Grapple to maintain for the round, and use your standard for something else.

Lodrak wrote:
2. if not on 1 can that character do maintain on his move action because of greater grapple? I dont see why you couldnt because the grapple rules says "you can take any action that doesn’t require two hands to perform,"

Answered by 1.

Lodrak wrote:
3. can a character grapple someone as a move action with his greater grapple?

Answered by 1.

Lodrak wrote:
4. can a character grapple as a swift action because of rapid grapple if he fails on his move action grapple maintain but succeds on his standard action grapple maintain?

Nope. Rapid Grapple specifically calls out the move action grapple.

Lodrak wrote:
5. Greater beast totem says it can make a pounce at end of a charge does that mean that someone who have it can make everything that is a charge (move + attack) to make a full attack after that attack? essentially giving one extra attack. or is it just greater beast totem that is weird worded?

Pounce is a specific full round attack, which allows you to make all of your normal attacks (as if a full round attack) at the end of a charge movement. The 'end of the charge' references the movement, not the attack.

Lodrak wrote:
6. Can that character with pounce substitute one of the attack for a bull rush?"You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack."

Yes. Pounce is a charge, and you can replace any of the melee attacks with a Bull Rush.


Remebered you can always exchange a standard to a move action so even if you fail on you move action maintain you can do another move action maintain to get that swift action grapple.
For 1 and 3 I meant "initiate grapple" when I said "grapple".
Aydin im confused on 6. Do you mean only single or multiple replaces is possible? also I just saw the quick bull rush feat so im not sure you can replace just one of the many attacks (without the quick bull rush feat) and is more inclined to believe in skaldis answer where you replace the full attack.

Grand Lodge

Lodrak wrote:
Remebered you can always exchange a standard to a move action so even if you fail on you move action maintain you can do another move action maintain to get that swift action grapple.

This is true, but in some cases, not possible. For example, a Maneuver Master Monk, the Flurry of Maneuvers allows you to perform a combat maneuver which would consume a standard.

Lodrak wrote:
For 1 and 3 I meant "initiate grapple" when I said "grapple".

With that clarification, I will answer:

1) No, initiating a grapple is not the same thing as maintaining a grapple. Maintaining a grapple can only be performed while you are grappling.

3) Skaldi is correct, you cannot initiate a grapple as a move action with greater grapple.

Lodrak wrote:
Aydin im confused on 6. Do you mean only single or multiple replaces is possible? also I just saw the quick bull rush feat so im not sure you can replace just one of the many attacks (without the quick bull rush feat) and is more inclined to believe in skaldis answer where you replace the full attack.

Here is the RAW for Bull Rush:

Bull Rush wrote:
You can make a Bull Rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack. You can only Bull Rush an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. A Bull Rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm.

The 'as part of a charge' does not normally take into account the idea of pouncing, but by a strict reading, you could Charge -> Attack,Attack,Bull Rush, assuming 3 attacks. I disagree with Skaldi's reading of it, but this is not a clear cut situation.


Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
The 'as part of a charge' does not normally take into account the idea of pouncing, but by a strict reading, you could Charge -> Attack,Attack,Bull Rush, assuming 3 attacks. I disagree with Skaldi's reading of it, but this is not a clear cut situation.

As usual, if you are playing PFS, expect table variation. Some GMs will lean one way, some the other.

If it's a home game, just ask your GM.

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