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Then again, maybe it is all flavored because I first met him in Silent Tide, while running my Season 0 Halfling Rogue.
If the PCs attempt to bargain, flatter, or trick Grandmaster Torch, roleplay the session accordingly, permitting them to make any social skill checks they wish to attempt. They might also pique his interest if they attempt to sell him the Gut Wither poison from Act 2. If the PCs succeed in amusing or impressing Grandmaster Torch, or perhaps explain why for the good of Absalom he really ought to help them, he relents on his pricing and offers an alternate solution:
I’ve recently come into possession of a series of safes. Unfortunately, the safecracker I employed has turned out to be quite useless. If you can coax even three of the five safes open, I could be persuaded to disclose Nessian’s location and dispense with my regular fee entirely. These chests are remarkably unique and I have the foreboding suspicion that, in this case, the receptacles just might be worth more than their contents, so I’d rather you didn’t smash them open. Oh! One more thing: if my diviner warns me you have crossed me and stolen the contents, there will be repercussions.
If the PCs bring Grandmaster Torch three open safes with their contents, the information broker reveals that Nessian lairs in a new base of operations nicknamed the Pyramid of the Dog which he has carved out of a ruin of halfcollapsed siege towers, just outside of Absalom. If the PCs bring the Grandmaster four open safes, he tips them 50 gp each. If they open all five for him, he makes it 100 gp each. As he sends the PCs on their way, he reminds them that should Nessian ever discover he disclosed this information, the Grandmaster would view that as “most unprofessional” and would “spread the word.”
Sorry, can't see anything condecending in there (except he might see through any attempts to trick him and act accordingly). Or is tipping 100gp considered condecending?

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Depends, I guess, on how you see his speech. Neutral? Not really, it is insulting when speaking to a party including a Rogue.
And he is definitely talking down to the party, not negotiating with the party.
And it is "might be persuaded", not "will waive", for one example.
Take it as given that some people see GMT different than you do, and consider a dead Torch to be the only Torch who is not an insult to the Human race, Pathfinders, and the idea of Cooperate.

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Depends, I guess, on how you see his speech. Neutral? Not really, it is insulting when speaking to a party including a Rogue.
And he is definitely talking down to the party, not negotiating with the party.
And it is "might be persuaded", not "will waive", for one example.
Take it as given that some people see GMT different than you do, and consider a dead Torch to be the only Torch who is not an insult to the Human race, Pathfinders, and the idea of Cooperate.
I really don't see which part you find condescending. Is it the warning (please don't try and trick me cause I'm about 10 levels higher?).
"might be persuaded" actually absolutely means "will waive", but that might be something I picked up in Brittain.
And killing people cause you don't like them is part of the MurderHobo rules, not the pathfinder rules.

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After requesting an audience, the PCs are brought before the Grandmaster,
a charming, soft-spoken man, but one whose entire body is covered in horrible burn scars.
Grandmaster Torch (N male human bardic sage 6/rogue 5) lounges in a shallow pool nursing his scars while two servants gently recycle the water over his charred form. His two heavily armored, half-orc bodyguards remain close at hand. After a brief introduction, Grandmaster Torch concedes he does in fact know where the upstart Nessian has carved out his new base of operations. Torch is reluctant to sell the information, and the price to rat out a potential future underworld leader of Absalom is steep indeed: 6,000 gp, an amount the PCs are unlikely to be able to afford.
If the PCs attempt to bargain, flatter, or trick Grandmaster Torch, roleplay the session accordingly, permitting them to make any social skill checks they wish to attempt. They might also pique his interest if they attempt to sell him the Gut Wither poison from Act 2. If the PCs succeed in amusing or impressing Grandmaster Torch, or perhaps explain why for the good of Absalom he really ought to help them, he relents on his pricing and offers an alternate solution:
"I’ve recently come into possession of a series of safes. Unfortunately, the safecracker I employed has turned out to be quite useless. If you can coax even three of the five safes open, I could be persuaded to disclose Nessian’s location and dispense with my regular fee entirely. These chests are remarkably unique and I have the foreboding suspicion that, in this case, the receptacles just might be worth more than their contents, so I’d rather you didn’t smash them open. Oh! One more thing: if my diviner warns me you have crossed me and stolen the contents, there will be repercussions."
let us examine the above.
The PCs need information, so they go to an information broker. He has the information - and the normal price is high (above what someone in this tier will have, but not really unreasonable for an 11th level guy - which is what GMT is. Price is less than the GP earned in one scenario for a PC of his level.
But wait - there are other options presented. You can talk him out of the information. With any social skill you wish to use. And there is no DC set, so whatever you try is likely to work (depending on the whim of the Judge).
PC#1 "I try Intimidate - I've got a 25. I point out we are with the Pathfinders, and if he doesn't fork over what we, it could go bad for his business in the future. Does he tell us?"
PC#2 "I'll try Diplomacy - I've got a 20... I appeal to his pride - and the fact that this will get into a Pathfinder Chronicle, he'll be getting LOTS of free publicity. Does he tell us?"
PC#3 "I'll use Bluff - with a 27! ... I point out that I'm with the Lord Mayors office, and he needs to do this or we'll send inspectors down to check on his perrmits. so he tells us right?"
PC#4 (a Paladin) "I just tell him that we are trying to save the City from an invasion of undead - some of whom are already being seen in the Puddles district above. I appeal to his Civic Pride... Does that work?"
all of the above actually work to net the PCs the ability to get the answer. And just as a "face saving" move, he hands the PCs a set of easy puzzles to solve - so that rumors of what a big softy he is don't get spread around. And even then the PCs only have to get 60% of the puzzles solved! Sheesh!
GMT: "Wow, you solved this 'really hard task'! (wink-wink) So I guess you won the prize! Here's the Information (list price 6K gp) - and if you got more of the puzzles I'll throw in some extra (over cap) gold!"
Yeah - in this one GMT comes across as about 1/2 game show host for "Let's Make a Deal"
Edit: expanded on the Examples - some judges (and players!) want more than just the rolls

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Depends, I guess, on how you see his speech. Neutral? Not really, it is insulting when speaking to a party including a Rogue.
And he is definitely talking down to the party, not negotiating with the party.
And it is "might be persuaded", not "will waive", for one example.
Take it as given that some people see GMT different than you do, and consider a dead Torch to be the only Torch who is not an insult to the Human race, Pathfinders, and the idea of Cooperate.
wait... isn't the exact line
If the PCs attempt to bargain, flatter, or trick Grandmaster Torch, roleplay the session accordingly, permitting them to make any social skill checks they wish to attempt.
so - if the PCs try ANYTHING short of attacking him... "bargain, flatter, or trick" the judge is instructed to "roleplay the session".... letting the PCs use any skill they want - and the result goes from Point A to Point B. There isn't even any DCs suggested! Whatever they try leads to the "ok, you get to do these try to solve these 5 puzzles. Get 3 and you get the 6,000 gp prize. Get more than 3 and you earn extra money"

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kinevon wrote:...and consider a dead Torch to be the only Torch who is not an insult to the Human race, Pathfinders, and the idea of Cooperate.Sorry, 'my opinion is the only right one' is not the definition of cooperate.
Try reading it again, in context. Did I say, anywhere, that my PCs would attempt to kill; him without provocation? No.
Did I say that any of my PCs who have spent any time interacting with him would, if he offered any provocation? Yes.I played DotSP1 without either attacking him verbally or physically, and, because my PC in that one had never encountered him before, without attempting to do any sabotage.
could be persuaded
Could be persuaded.
COULD be persuaded.
Now, the GM knows that he will be persuaded, but the PCs and players, outside of metagaming, don't.
So, instead of saying, "If you do this task for me, I will give you the information yo requested."; he says, "If you do this task for me, I could be persuaded to give you the information."
Big difference.
And the initial introduction, whether he is charming and soft-spoken or not, is still an awful way to meet potential clients. Try that in the real world, and you won't have either a job or a business for long, not so? Well, maybe if your business is selling hots tubs....

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kinevon wrote:could be persuaded
Could be persuaded.
COULD be persuaded.Now, the GM knows that he will be persuaded, but the PCs and players, outside of metagaming, don't.
You so failed your linguistics check of rogue innuendo there:
He says he is going to give the information for free.
Not in any version of English that I know.

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I'm with Auke here, Torch is clearly insinuating that if the Pathfinders scratch his back (but not literally, because you know, the painful scars), he'll scratch theirs. As a native speaker, it's actually pretty common in the English language.
Actually, he could have said what you said, or made oit clear that, if the Pathfinders get some of the boxes open, he would (not might) give them the information.
By the way, I was born in Chicago, Illinois, USA, and lived there, other than during a couple of years around college, for over 40 years. So, yes, I am a native English speaker.
Might is not a promise of performance.
Neither is could.
Could is moving into Yoda territory, you could go left up ahead. You could also go right.
I could be persuaded to give you the information you want. I could also be persuaded to not give you that information.
Could be, I am old. Could be, I moved across the county. Could be, maybe not.

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Side thoughts: re: the original question (which was not "just how bad of a guy is Torch?", but "how do you deal with the fact that Torch's role changes seriously in a later-season scenario?"), Torch is most definitely not the only one with that issue. There are other scenarios where you get missions from people who later turn out not to be your friends, who who later turn out to become dead (presumably permanently). Even on a smaller level, you get faction missions from people who later aren't your faction head, or you get faction missions from people who later you might be trying to decide if they should become your faction head.
"Wibbly wobbly timey wimey" is about the only way to deal with it. For instance, playing may Season 5 scenarios, I remind players that the context is that we have not yet found the missing Dwarven Sky Citadel, which is why we are so interested in working towards it. If you're going to both have interesting metaplots and have the ability to go back and replay older scenarios out of order, you are going to get some of this. It mostly just requires players willing to play along with it a bit and have highly targeted temporary amnesia.
On another side thought: I read (and started GMing, although the game didn't last) the first book of Shattered Star before playing any Season 4 PFS games. I also have never played Race for the Runecarved Key. Finally, there are lots of Season 4 scenarios I haven't played yet. As such, I really don't get the hate that a lot of people have for Sheila Heidmarch. She seems like a good sort to me over all.

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I don't know if I am any help but,
I depict GMT in three ways in my sessions, depending on who is talking to him.
1) Not-Shadow lodge members - for them, GMT is scarred and sometimes grumpy, but always willing to share more information than VC give them for their missions - for a price ofcourse, cause he needs to make a living. He always talks about cooperation, about helping each other and throws small drops of poison in minds of Pathfinders, about decemvirate and his practices with pathfinders and aspecially artefacts. Cause GMT wants all artefacts of PFS to be used for greater good, not to just lock them from the world's reach. To help Pathfinders and other people - and he has a reason. His scars, curable only by powerful artifact stored in the Society's vaults.
2) Shadow Lodge members - for them, GMT is a strong politician, who makes his moves ahead of others, thinks in a big picture and wants more for his members. But he needs to go over dead bodies sometimes. But that's OK, cause afterall, he does nothing worse than the Decemvirate does and he is always grateful for everything his members do for him. He had to get rid of Spider, cause he/she sent RedMantis Assassins on him, he had to stay in the shadows, cause his face is scarred because of the job he did for Decemvirate and Decemvirate wasnt grateful, they didn't heal his wounds, nor cured his curse. They threw him in the shadow. He is victim. Sometimes angry and really powerful, but victim - and wants just good things for us, doesn't he?
3) In sharp situtations - in a really dense situations, GMT reveals his true self, not only burned and scarred on the outside, but burning and full of hatred inside. He just uses his "mask of victim" to convince others to do a job that's needed to be done. He is like a plague - slow, nearly invisible, but strikes when the enemy is weak and kills him in one hit. And he will use anybody for his cause - to put decemvirate to his knees and take-over the society. He just doesnt care about others. He sacrificed so many, he can't count. He worked with spider sometimes, he works with AC, if he needs - he just uses his web to overtake it all. Only sad thing, for him, it takes so long. But he is patient, wounded, angry, but patient.

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Side thoughts: re: the original question (which was not "just how bad of a guy is Torch?", but "how do you deal with the fact that Torch's role changes seriously in a later-season scenario?"),
Best and simplest solution, retcon Rivalry's End out of existence.
:P
But, aside from that a few possible options.
I guess it really depends most on primarily how the DM is going to play him, but also a little bit on the specific scenario (and his function in it), and how each player feels about him (or what they know/have heard).
1.) Swap him out completely for another NPC. No one is the wiser.
2.) Remind the players that Torch needs their help once more/all the good he did/that they are under orders and a job to do, depending on their individual views on him.
3.) Play it up as that this scenario is more of a flashback, happening before other events to come.
4.) Insinuate that the various idiots in charge of the Society have no idea what Torches end game is, or even the thirty moves before it. Unofficially, orders are to wait and watch only. No attacking until we know what we are dealing with.
5.) It was a Kitsune or a Doppelganger. Old news. Torch wouldn't get burned a third time.
6.) Ask them if any of these characters in play have ever met GMT, or just the rumors.
7.) When Torch left, who knows just what he took with him. I mean, did you really think we actually needed Zarta.
8.) Could swap GMT out for copy-cat, someone trying to follow in his footsteps.

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My core monk doesn't particularly like Torch. Then again she's only encountered the man a few times. But each time just talking to the man has felt like a Faustian bargain. The information he supplied has been dangerously incomplete, while the favors he demands before giving us the information have several times nearly gotten us killed.
Kahel on the other hand has only met Torch once. Her opinion is that while Torch is annoying, her brothers and sisters are more irritating.

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rknop wrote:Side thoughts: re: the original question (which was not "just how bad of a guy is Torch?", but "how do you deal with the fact that Torch's role changes seriously in a later-season scenario?"),Best and simplest solution, retcon Rivalry's End out of existence.
:P
I highly support this plan.

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DM Beckett wrote:I highly support this plan.rknop wrote:Side thoughts: re: the original question (which was not "just how bad of a guy is Torch?", but "how do you deal with the fact that Torch's role changes seriously in a later-season scenario?"),Best and simplest solution, retcon Rivalry's End out of existence.
:P
No disagreements here.

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I don't know why you would want to write him out as he's so compelling! I was overjoyed when I got to write GMT in Destiny of the Sands Part 1 because The Many Fortunes of Grandmaster Torch was the second scenario I ever played! You don't have to like him, but he's more valuable alive and brokering info than dead no matter how smug and condescending he seems. He's the ultimate Mr. Johnson in Shadowrun terms!
--I wanna Vrock

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Are you talking about Torch or the Pathfinder Society?
:P
Grandmaster Torch, of course. Kahel is a kitsune with 3 brothers and 2 sisters. She's the most serious of the bunch, and one least likely to play pranks. So Kahel finds her siblings infinitely more annoying then Grandmaster Torch. Then again she's only dealt with the man once.
And yeah, Bitter Bargain was my first encounter with Torch while playing Xao. In fact, it was my first session with Xao too. What an introduction to the pathfinder society for a young wide eyed monk. :)

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The Players, "i take out my sword and charge him"
GM:"Sensing your hostility as you move to draw your blade GMT raises his hand and says, 'It would do you well to remember whom you work for. The society needs me, and as it would appear at the mome,t so do you. We would not want your prestige in the society to be diminished by foolish actions." If this wasnt enough of a hint to let them k,ow they are either about to lose the extra prestige or even the whole mission state it outright. Let them know that they can still fight but they may: die by his guards, fail the mission, get thrown in jail, lose prestige, and/or shift alignment depending on scenario.

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let them k,ow they are either about to lose the extra prestige or even the whole mission state it outright. Let them know that they can still fight but they may: die by his guards, fail the mission, get thrown in jail, lose prestige, and/or shift alignment depending on scenario.
Well worth it :-).
I think you underestimate how much of a bad taste a certain scenario left in the mouths of many characters and/or players.
The ONLY reason Torch has survived further encounters is that I did not want to be a jerk and ruin other peoples fun. Several of my characters would happily take a 0 Exp/0 Prestige/0 Gold chronicle for the sheer visceral pleasure in killing Torch in a way that only True Resurrection would get him back.

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G-Zeus wrote:let them k,ow they are either about to lose the extra prestige or even the whole mission state it outright. Let them know that they can still fight but they may: die by his guards, fail the mission, get thrown in jail, lose prestige, and/or shift alignment depending on scenario.Well worth it :-).
I think you underestimate how much of a bad taste a certain scenario left in the mouths of many characters and/or players.
The ONLY reason Torch has survived further encounters is that I did not want to be a jerk and ruin other peoples fun. Several of my characters would happily take a 0 Exp/0 Prestige/0 Gold chronicle for the sheer visceral pleasure in killing Torch in a way that only True Resurrection would get him back.
Yeah.. I know a certain Gunslinger/Alchemist who carries a MW Adamantine Bullet on her necklace etched with every name she knows Torch goes by.

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This thread has me thinking of the possibly creating a Convention schedule and fill it with Grandmaster Torch 'goodness'. Or, even have it where every table on a Saturday 8 am time slot (example) is handed out by the same NPC VC.
Has someone created a master list of each scenario, who the VC is and/or interesting NPCs who may pop in?
Example:
Or, have I just given myself homework? ;)
-- Steve

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wow... I have a great idea!
I've got a good Disguise skill (something in the +30s) BEFORE I add in Hat of Disguise...
so I wonder if I can start disguising myself as GMT! This could get ... interesting...
We'll need to get more bubbles in the bath though.
Don't forget MW Tool (Bathtub) +2 to disguise rolls to appear as GMT...

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It's interesting how everyone has a different perspective on Grandmaster Torch depending on when they (as players) first met him, as well as when their characters first met him.
I first ran into Torch in Destiny of the Sands Part I, with a character who was on his first-ever mission. None of the players or characters in the party (3 plus a pre-gen) had ever encountered him before.
We fell for his 'legitimate' act... and my alchemist character fell a little harder than I did.
Let me put it this way - as a player, having now played most of Season 2, I feel like Torch's Shadow Lodge got a really rough retirement scenario - he deserved better than that. As a character, my alchemist is still (quite literally) head-over-heels in love with Torch - and it's fun to write about when I'm bored.
Paizo's writers should be congratulated on creating such a complex, nuanced, and divisive character, regardless of how we personally feel about him.
To the OP, I would leave him in the scenarios unchanged, and just take a minute to explain that the events of the scenario are set in the past, when the circumstances of his relationship with the Society were considerably different than they presently are.
Everyone will form their own opinions about the Grandmaster, and that's a good thing.

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It's interesting how everyone has a different perspective on Grandmaster Torch depending on when they (as players) first met him, as well as when their characters first met him.
I first ran into Torch in Destiny of the Sands Part I, with a character who was on his first-ever mission. None of the players or characters in the party (3 plus a pre-gen) had ever encountered him before.
We fell for his 'legitimate' act... and my alchemist character fell a little harder than I did.
Let me put it this way - as a player, having now played most of Season 2, I feel like Torch's Shadow Lodge got a really rough retirement scenario - he deserved better than that. As a character, my alchemist is still (quite literally) head-over-heels in love with Torch - and it's fun to write about when I'm bored.
Paizo's writers should be congratulated on creating such a complex, nuanced, and divisive character, regardless of how we personally feel about him.
To the OP, I would leave him in the scenarios unchanged, and just take a minute to explain that the events of the scenario are set in the past, when the circumstances of his relationship with the Society were considerably different than they presently are.
Everyone will form their own opinions about the Grandmaster, and that's a good thing.
I'm not sure if I want to share my Torchie with you kid....
I've been carrying a torch for the Grand Master sense season 3

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Artemis_Dreamer wrote:It's interesting how everyone has a different perspective on Grandmaster Torch depending on when they (as players) first met him, as well as when their characters first met him.
I first ran into Torch in Destiny of the Sands Part I, with a character who was on his first-ever mission. None of the players or characters in the party (3 plus a pre-gen) had ever encountered him before.
We fell for his 'legitimate' act... and my alchemist character fell a little harder than I did.
Let me put it this way - as a player, having now played most of Season 2, I feel like Torch's Shadow Lodge got a really rough retirement scenario - he deserved better than that. As a character, my alchemist is still (quite literally) head-over-heels in love with Torch - and it's fun to write about when I'm bored.
Paizo's writers should be congratulated on creating such a complex, nuanced, and divisive character, regardless of how we personally feel about him.
To the OP, I would leave him in the scenarios unchanged, and just take a minute to explain that the events of the scenario are set in the past, when the circumstances of his relationship with the Society were considerably different than they presently are.
Everyone will form their own opinions about the Grandmaster, and that's a good thing.
I'm not sure if I want to share my Torchie with you kid....
I've been carrying a torch for the Grand Master sense season 3
Don't worry, I'll keep him hot for you two. (MW Railgun + Arotun's Flame/Slime Grenade)

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Katisha wrote:Don't worry, I'll keep him hot for you two. (MW Railgun + Arotun's Flame/Slime Grenade)Artemis_Dreamer wrote:It's interesting how everyone has a different perspective on Grandmaster Torch depending on when they (as players) first met him, as well as when their characters first met him.
I first ran into Torch in Destiny of the Sands Part I, with a character who was on his first-ever mission. None of the players or characters in the party (3 plus a pre-gen) had ever encountered him before.
We fell for his 'legitimate' act... and my alchemist character fell a little harder than I did.
Let me put it this way - as a player, having now played most of Season 2, I feel like Torch's Shadow Lodge got a really rough retirement scenario - he deserved better than that. As a character, my alchemist is still (quite literally) head-over-heels in love with Torch - and it's fun to write about when I'm bored.
Paizo's writers should be congratulated on creating such a complex, nuanced, and divisive character, regardless of how we personally feel about him.
To the OP, I would leave him in the scenarios unchanged, and just take a minute to explain that the events of the scenario are set in the past, when the circumstances of his relationship with the Society were considerably different than they presently are.
Everyone will form their own opinions about the Grandmaster, and that's a good thing.
I'm not sure if I want to share my Torchie with you kid....
I've been carrying a torch for the Grand Master sense season 3
clearly you are currently being watched, and your movements are being tracked... :)

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Kyrie Ebonblade wrote:clearly you are currently being watched, and your movements are being tracked... :)Katisha wrote:Don't worry, I'll keep him hot for you two. (MW Railgun + Arotun's Flame/Slime Grenade)Artemis_Dreamer wrote:It's interesting how everyone has a different perspective on Grandmaster Torch depending on when they (as players) first met him, as well as when their characters first met him.
I first ran into Torch in Destiny of the Sands Part I, with a character who was on his first-ever mission. None of the players or characters in the party (3 plus a pre-gen) had ever encountered him before.
We fell for his 'legitimate' act... and my alchemist character fell a little harder than I did.
Let me put it this way - as a player, having now played most of Season 2, I feel like Torch's Shadow Lodge got a really rough retirement scenario - he deserved better than that. As a character, my alchemist is still (quite literally) head-over-heels in love with Torch - and it's fun to write about when I'm bored.
Paizo's writers should be congratulated on creating such a complex, nuanced, and divisive character, regardless of how we personally feel about him.
To the OP, I would leave him in the scenarios unchanged, and just take a minute to explain that the events of the scenario are set in the past, when the circumstances of his relationship with the Society were considerably different than they presently are.
Everyone will form their own opinions about the Grandmaster, and that's a good thing.
I'm not sure if I want to share my Torchie with you kid....
I've been carrying a torch for the Grand Master sense season 3
Nah, I left the bits of my 'watchers' in a small bucket. You should aways check ABOVE the door left ajar. Sometimes it's not water in the bucket.