Crossbow mastery and Manyshot, does the first allow the second?

[OldRolero]

Hi, I am designing a bolt ace gunslinger, and while looking for feats, I realized that supposedly you cannot use the manyshot feat with a crossbow, as it states: "When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows."

However, when reading the crossbow mastery feat, there is this other sentence:"You can fire a crossbow as many times in a full attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow."

My question here is, does the crossbow mastery feat overrule the limitation mentioned in the manyshot feat?

Links:

manyshot

crossbow-mastery

[Trekkie90909]

Logic: Actually crossbow mastery just reduces the reload time to a free action. Since manyshot works by firing two arrows at once (something unaffected by reload speed, and mechanically impossible for a standard crossbow) you still cannot use it.

Or to give you a RAW reason: Manyshot does not affect the number of attacks you make in a round (just the number of projectiles fired during those attacks), thus being able to make the same number of attacks as with a bow has no effect even with the feat.

[Gwen Smith]

The important comparison is actually "as many times in a full attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow." It is not "you can count a crossbow as a bow for any feats or abilities".

Also, this phrasing (the "same number of attacks as a bow") is used in several feats, including Quick Draw: "A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow)."

I think it's pretty clear that Manyshot is not intended to work with thrown weapons, so I would not give any weight to text comparing the number of attacks to that of a bow in this context.

[Sandslice]

OldRolero wrote:

Hi, I am designing a bolt ace gunslinger, and while looking for feats, I realized that supposedly you cannot use the manyshot feat with a crossbow, as it states: "When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows."

However, when reading the crossbow mastery feat, there is this other sentence:"You can fire a crossbow as many times in a full attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow."

My question here is, does the crossbow mastery feat overrule the limitation mentioned in the manyshot feat?

Links:

manyshot

crossbow-mastery

Since a crossbow can't hold two bolts ready at once (unless it's a double crossbow,) it's mechanically impossible to combine Manyshot with Crossbow Mastery. Also game mechanically, since a crossbow is explicitly not a bow.

And if it IS a double crossbow, Mastery only loads both bolts in one move action, meaning you can't even make a full-attack action to begin with.

[OldRolero]

I guess it makes sense, yes.

Thanks for the clarification guys ;)

[Cap. Darling]

In my game as if you were fIrving a bow is enough and Many shot works with both crosbow Mastery and Quick draw. I can see it either way but since i dont find it over powered it works with those two.
It dosent work with guns.

[Tryn]

for a crossbow some "bow feats" are in fact mechanical modifications
Rapid Shot: better reload mechanism (e.g. pump-action)
Manyshot: two "barrels"

This is something where I think PF didn't do a good job. (especially as I LOVE crossbows (stylewise)).

I would simply ask my GM if I can use this feats with a crossbow by modifying it (maybe by myself with some ranks in craft engineering).

Example:
Manyshot (Crossbow)
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Craft (Engineering) 6

Benefit:
This feat allows you to modify a masterwork crossbow by adding a second "barrel" (DC 20, 8 hours).
When making a full-attack action with this modified crossbow your first attack fires two bolts. If the attack hits, both bolts hit. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack.