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The Alchemist's fourth level extract 'Viper Bomb Admixture' states that when the target is successfully hit by one of the vipers coming out of the bomb that they are poisoned via the Venomous Snake's Poison ability.
Does this admixture auto-poison the target?
Here's my reasoning:
PRD's rules for poisoning for why it should:
* When you are initially exposed to a poison (whether during your action or someone else's), you must make a save to avoid being poisoned.
* Success: You resist being poisoned. You do not suffer any ill effects and you need not make any further saves.
* Failure: You are poisoned and immediately suffer the listed effect. You will need to make further saves to avoid more damage and cure the poison.
Exception If the poison has an onset period, failing the initial check does NOT cause you to suffer any effects.
The rules for poisoning state the initial exposure saves are to resist the act of being poisoned.
The spell itself:
When you throw a bomb and hit a target directly, up to four vipers are released from the bomb. One viper attacks the target of the direct hit, and the other vipers attack up to three creatures that take damage from the splash damage. The vipers make melee touch attacks (using your base attack bonus + Intelligence modifier) and on a hit deal 1d4 + your Intelligence modifier damage, and the target is poisoned as if by a venomous snake. Hit or miss, the conjured vipers disappear after they make the attack. The conjured snakes are not damaged or adversely affected by the bombs you throw.
The key phrase here is "..., and the target is poisoned as if by a venomous snake."
My reasoning sees the target getting auto-poisoned as it avoids any phrasing pertaining to exposure, rather it says the target is poisoned.
Can anyone tell me if there's anything I'm missing that would indeed give the target of the viper bomb a save to avoid the poison in the first place?
On a secondary note; what would be the DC of the poison? Would it change at all as it comes from a 4th level spell or does it stay as referenced?
Thanks for the reply!
They would of course get their save either immediately after the 1d2 con damage or immediately before they would suffer the 1d2 again which is DC 13.
(Caveat: the following is all opinion. Please let me know why you think differently!) I believe the intent is actually to allow the automatic poisoning because 1d2 con damage would not be out of line as an additive effect caused by a fourth level spell for an alchemist. It cannot cause more than 1d2, as once the target is poisoned additional poisonings from multiple bombs will only increase the DC for the save. The alchemist gets access to this at 12th level, when sixth level spells begin showing up. Fortitude saves at that level are typically between 12 and 16, allowing for an almost laughable save depending on what you are fighting.
An example of this intent could be gleaned from Cloud Kill which will begin to show up a full two levels before Viper Admixture. It deals 1d4 con damage with a fort save for only half. This could be considered automatic. It can either hit the target twice or hit multiple targets if positioned correctly. This is a poison effect that will deal damage regardless of you making a save or not.
The DC for a minimum caster level cloud kill is 15+ casting stat (5-ish around this level I believe, so I would hazard to guess an average DC of 18-20).
To me it sounds reasonably in line with the power level of other effects unless I'm missing something big.
Any thoughts on this?
No, this is crazy. They absolutely get a save. You get poisoned and you make a save. That's how it works.
And stop acting like 1d2 automatic con damage is reasonable for a 4th level extract or whatever because of Poison and Cloudkill. This is not 1d2 Con damage once, this is 1d4+int normal damage plus 1d2 con damage to up to four targets on every bomb thrown in every round for 11+ rounds with no possibility of friendly fire (because as an 11th level alchemist, you have either paid your Precise Bombs tax, or you've been murdered by your party).
Let me create a hypothetical spell: it's a 4th level Inquisitor, Bard, and Ranger spell that lasts rounds per level. The effect is: you receive an untyped bonus to damage rolls equal to 1d4 + casting stat. Can you imagine how fast that would hit the top of every class guide's rankings? Now, add to it, that it also deals that bonus damage to up to three nearby enemies. Mind blown.
The point is, it's an awesome spell as is. However, the DC of the poison is probably not 13. Since it adds an effect to your bombs, I would suggest it uses your bomb's DC (i.e. 10 + 1/2 level + Int), or at the very least, the spell save.
No, this is crazy. They absolutely get a save. You get poisoned and you make a save. That's how it works.
And stop acting like 1d2 automatic con damage is reasonable for a 4th level extract or whatever because of Poison and Cloudkill. This is not 1d2 Con damage once, this is 1d4+int normal damage plus 1d2 con damage to up to four targets on every bomb thrown in every round for 11+ rounds with no possibility of friendly fire (because as an 11th level alchemist, you have either paid your Precise Bombs tax, or you've been murdered by your party).
Let me create a hypothetical spell: it's a 4th level Inquisitor, Bard, and Ranger spell that lasts rounds per level. The effect is: you receive an untyped bonus to damage rolls equal to 1d4 + casting stat. Can you imagine how fast that would hit the top of every class guide's rankings? Now, add to it, that it also deals that bonus damage to up to three nearby enemies. Mind blown.
The point is, it's an awesome spell as is. However, the DC of the poison is probably not 13. Since it adds an effect to your bombs, I would suggest it uses your bomb's DC (i.e. 10 + 1/2 level + Int), or at the very least, the spell save.
I would posit that is indeed 1d2 con damage per round maximum. Once you've been afflicted by a poison, additional poisonings do nothing but raise the DC of the save they need to make.
Unfortunately admixtures are not discoveries and do not benefit from the Alchemist's discovery DC formula (10 + 1/2 level + Int).
The precise bombs tax only works on the fire splash damage of minimum bomb damage.
Whenever the alchemist throws a bomb, he can select a number of squares equal to his Intelligence modifier that are not affected by the splash damage from his bombs. If the bomb misses, this discovery has no effect.
Discoveries like Poison Bomb and Stink Bomb state they have an area of 'twice the splash radius' and operate independently of the actual splash squares or damage. Admixtures (specifically viper in this case) are also exempt from precise bombs so friendly fire is 100% on.
If an alchemist with viper were to land 4 bombs in a round (not unreasonable for a 12th level alchemist) and they were indeed auto-poison, would mean up to four targets would take 1d4+int and 1d2 con damage, with a save DC of 21 (approx a 75% chance with an okay fort save at CR 12 to negate it next turn).
Honestly as a DM I would either say it either auto poisoned but kept it's DC 13 or used Spell DC (10 + Spell Level + Int) as the save for the poison.
A natural 1 being the only way to fail a save caused by a fourth level spell seems a bit.. frivolous to me.
I agree with the consistency thing, though I wouldn't be surprised to find a spell elsewhere with the poison descriptor not offering a save.
I would posit that is indeed 1d2 con damage per round maximum. Once you've been afflicted by a poison, additional poisonings do nothing but raise the DC of the save they need to make.
I am fairly positive that you still take the initial damage (though only make one roll per round afterward).
Unfortunately admixtures are not discoveries and do not benefit from the Alchemist's discovery DC formula (10 + 1/2 level + Int).
Yes, the more I think about it, the more I believe it ought to be the spell DC.
The precise bombs tax only works on the fire splash damage of minimum bomb damage.
And as a result, it will protect your allies from the viper admixture:
"...and the other vipers attack up to three creatures that take damage from the splash damage."
If they don't take splash damage, they don't take Vipers. And the admixture also implies a choice is made--I believe you can choose to have the vipers affect fewer than three additional creatures.
If an alchemist with viper were to land 4 bombs in a round (not unreasonable for a 12th level alchemist) and they were indeed auto-poison, would mean up to four targets would take 1d4+int and 1d2 con damage, with a save DC of 21 (approx a 75% chance with an okay fort save at CR 12 to negate it next turn).
No, it would mean up to four targets took 4d4 + 4xInt. You seem to be positing the level 12 Alchemist would have a very low Int of +5, so, that's 4d4 + 20 (30 average). +30 damage to up to four targets is an amazing 4th level extract all by itself (yes, because the vipers make touch attacks, I'm assuming they all hit--Touch AC is a joke at level 12+).
I still believe they could take the initial poison damage repeatedly, but even if not, auto-poisoning them with just base Venomous Snake poison would be a DC: 19, not 21.
Honestly as a DM I would either say it either auto poisoned but kept it's DC 13 or used Spell DC (10 + Spell Level + Int) as the save for the poison.
And I would say spell save for sure.
I agree with the consistency thing, though I wouldn't be surprised to find a spell elsewhere with the poison descriptor not offering a save.
I would. There are 23 spells/extracts in Pathfinder with the Poison descriptor (thank you, Archives of Nethys). Viper Bomb Admixture actually isn't one of them, but, yeah, every single spell with the Poison descriptor involves a Fortitude save except for Pernicious Poison, which doesn't actually poison someone, it makes it harder to save vs. poisons.
It is absolutely unheard of and, in my opinion, ridiculous, to think there would be a poison for which you don't get to make an initial save.
The poison rules state additional poisonings from the same type of poison never inflict the initial effects on save failure. Secondary effects still occur every exposure per failed save.
So it will never be more than 1d2 con damage a round. Once the initial 1d2 happens, the only way for it to happen again is when the next round comes and they fail their save.
Edit: apparently it says that about poisons with both initial and secondary effects.
The blog actually made it a lot clearer.
The poison rules state additional poisonings from the same type of poison never inflict the initial effects on save failure. Secondary effects still occur every exposure per failed save.
So it will never be more than 1d2 con damage a round. Once the initial 1d2 happens, the only way for it to happen again is when the next round comes and they fail their save.
Straight from the blog:
"Valeros is hit by an arrow coated in greenblood oil. He fails the DC 13 Fort save and takes 1 point of Con damage. At the end of his turn, he fails a saving throw against the poison and takes 1 more point of Con damage. Before his second turn, he gets hit again and must attempt a DC 15 Fort save (because 1 dose is already affecting him). He fails this save as well, which deals another point of Con damage, increases the save DC he must make each round to 15, and extends the total duration by 2 rounds."
I don't know how that could be more clear. You take the initial poison damage each time, but you roll only once per turn for the secondary effects.