When crafting a magic item and failing by 5 or more, you make a cursed item.
Does your character inherently know they have made a cursed item and not the item they have wanted?
Nothing in the rules indicate an inherent knowledge (or lack thereof) on if you have cursed the item or not. However, you usually know if you fail a check so yes, you should know.
Beyond that there are two rules that can help identify whether an item is cursed.
1) Identifying it and beating the identification DC by +10 (CRB p536).
If the GM stated that no, you don't know, I would make casting identify (or using detect magic if I my skill is good enough) a standard part of creating magic items.
2) If the item wont leave my possession it is probably clear that it is cursed (CRB p536).
Not all items have this problem though.
Frankly though, no PC should ever be at risk of making a cursed item. You don't want to risk losing your money so you won't ever make an item that you cannot succeed making by taking 10.
Only people looking to make items well above their skill abilities (cannot succeed by taking 10) run the risk of cursing items.
the reason i was asking is that i am a lvl 3 char looking at brewing potions and i have a negative int modifier. I am the only person in my party willing to spend the feat so i wanted to understand the mechanics before i paid for it.
Thanks for the help
Assuming you kept your ranks up you have no chance of failing. Even if you didnt, the DC is just too low for potions for it to be of any kind of risk.
Assuming a caster level of 5 (minimum for spell level 3 potions), 1 rank, and a -3 intelligence (lowest possible point buy with a -2int race) we get:
DC: 5(base)+5(cl) = 10
Spellcraft: 1(rank)+3(class skill)-3(int) = +1
Take 10 gives you a 11, success.
Frankly, why are you making potions? Make scrolls instead. Yes, fewer people else can use them but they are generally far more useful.
I just see so many different examples on the dc to create magic items.
I have seen 10+spell lvl, 5+ spell level, +spell lvl + caster lvl...
I just double checked and the pfsrd says 5+spell lvl. Kinda doesnt make sense as the dc for alchemist's fire is 20 craft alchemy.
Frankly, why are you making potions? Make scrolls instead. Yes, fewer people else can use them but they are generally far more useful.
We have a wizard with scribe scroll so im not needed for that. Not a high enough lvl for wands, and we have a lot of players in the party who have invested NO skills into use magical device and are not spellcasters (we have 3 fighters and a couple other people as well).
Wands are more useful than either scrolls or potions arent they? I might put off getting brew potion and instead go for the wands. Just cough up the money for a couple potions of CLW in the mean time for the fighters
The DC is not 5+spell level, it is 5+caster level (CL)
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item’s creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items for more information).
Frankly, buying potions (or most consumables) is a waste of money. Some potions/scrolls should be kept on hand for emergencies but taking a feat in order to mass produce them is a waste of a good feat and a waste of gold. Of course, if there isn't a healer in the group a wand of CLW (or Infernal Healing) is sufficient.
i will take a look at the long term benifits, as this campaign looks as if its going to lvl 20 so we will save a lot of money i think.
But by later lvls the cost for the wand is insignificant
Let me ask this then, are you getting Craft Wondrous Item? That will save you far more money, even if the GM uses the +25% WBL limit suggested in Ultimate Campaign.
I was definately looking at it. But im not sure if my druid willg et as much utility from CWI as our wizard
i will take a look at the long term benifits, as this campaign looks as if its going to lvl 20 so we will save a lot of money i think.
I don't think so. It typically takes about 12 encounters per level, so, assuming you use one charge per encounter, that means you'll use about five wands over your character's entire adventuring career. That's a grand total of 3750 gp for five first-level wands, which you can cut in half and save 1875 gp.
I don't think that's "a lot."
Now, you can save more if it's a higher-level spell (which costs more per charge), or if it's a spell you use more often. By 20th level, your barbarian may need to burn half a cure light wound wand by himself to heal up after a single bad encounter. But at that point heal spells and the cleric's channels may be more available and you won't want to be carrying around a f%+$#@ of wands.
Cute. Evidently the autocensor doesn't know what the proper term for a collection of sticks is.....
J4RH34D, ultimately, it depends on your GM and the campaign. But, assuming he gives you enough time then yes, CWI is the best bang for your buck. Even if he uses the 25% WBL limit from Ultimate Campaign (which he should use).
As for utility, I am not sure what you mean. Using CWI, your druid can craft anything the wizard can craft. It may take you longer since you cannot accelerate it with your intelligence penalty, but you will still get there.
Out of curiosity, what kind of Druid is this going to be (Martial, Spell, Summoner)?
So you reckon when i should go for wondrous item?
Shrug. Depends on you, your GM and your group. There's no need to go for crafting feats at all if your GM allows you access to suitable merchants. Similarly, if you won't have enough downtime to craft items, crafting feats are useless and should be avoided. And if your GM and group allow other people to benefit from your feats, it may be possible for everyone to piggyback onto the wizard's CWI and no one else should take it.
I find that in general, CWI gives the best bang-for-buck in terms of flexibility. They can usually duplicate other effects (who needs magic armor when you have bracers?) Who needs a wand of healing when you have gloves of first aid?
ETA esp. if you're a druid, wondrous items are often more useful because you can't use most wands while wild shaped.
Out of curiosity, what kind of Druid is this going to be (Martial, Spell, Summoner)?
Martial mainly i am thinking...
Wizard has to learn the spells to make the item, but by the look of the spells he is choosing they wont be very useful. He is going more for colour spray and such. not buffers.
So you reckon when i should go for wondrous item?Shrug. Depends on you, your GM and your group. There's no need to go for crafting feats at all if your GM allows you access to suitable merchants. Similarly, if you won't have enough downtime to craft items, crafting feats are useless and should be avoided. And if your GM and group allow other people to benefit from your feats, it may be possible for everyone to piggyback onto the wizard's CWI and no one else should take it.
I find that in general, CWI gives the best bang-for-buck in terms of flexibility. They can usually duplicate other effects (who needs magic armor when you have bracers?) Who needs a wand of healing when you have gloves of first aid?
ETA esp. if you're a druid, wondrous items are often more useful because you can't use most wands while wild shaped.
You make some very good points. thank you
Wizard has to learn the spells to make the item, but by the look of the spells he is choosing they wont be very useful. He is going more for colour spray and such. not buffers.
Generally speaking, you don't need to know any spells at all to craft most wondrous items, and in the rare case that you do need a spell, one of you could craft the item using your feat with the other one helping by providing the spell, so it really doesn't matter which one of you takes the feat. Of course, you both might want to take something else to destroy your enemies, so taking a crafting feat might be a bit of a sacrifice in that regard, so perhaps as a team you might want to spread out the sacrificing.
Wizard has to learn the spells to make the item,
No, for wondrous items, he just needs to boost his Spellcraft enough for the +5 for a missing prerequisite. That's one reasons wizards rock as crafters, because they generally can make anything anyone wants without the relevant spell since their Int is off-the-charts.
E.g. a headband of ki focus has a caster level of 1 and requires that "creator must have a ki pool." But if a wizard is making the item, it's still only a Spellcraft check of 11 to make the item (5 + CL 1 + 5 [missing ki pool]). Assuming an intelligence of 10(!) and a single rank in spellcraft, the wizard can get a +4 and take 10 to make the item.
Out of curiosity, what kind of Druid is this going to be (Martial, Spell, Summoner)?Martial mainly i am thinking...
Wizard has to learn the spells to make the item, but by the look of the spells he is choosing they wont be very useful. He is going more for colour spray and such. not buffers.
So you have a couple options:
1) Buy him the spells. Then he can cast them for you (although he can do nothing else but help you craft when you are crafting and he is providing the spell).2) Increase the crafting DC by 5 for each prerequisite you are missing (including each spell).
If you are going martial you might want to consider Magic Arms and Armor (after CWI of course).
Ohk
so CWI is the best creation feat... my party just needs to decide if we will bother with it or go for more interesting feats
If you are planning on providing them with all their crafted items the rules don't work like that. You can only craft up to +25% (+50% for multiple crafting feats) of your WBL and if you craft for other people it comes out of that +25%.
But at that point heal spells and the cleric's channels may be more available and you won't want to be carrying around a f#*&#$ of wands.
Cute. Evidently the autocensor doesn't know what the proper term for a collection of sticks is.....
That particular word is a slur for homosexuals in the US—you could also say "bundle" in place of it.
Thanks Gauss, i know that. However homebrew campaigns are a wonderful thing. we are all really new to pathfinder (all on 1st characters) so we are exploring possibilities and fudging some of the more obscure rules to help us get to know what does what and to allow us to explore items more without massive financial considerations involved
sorry liz, that was mine
If you are planning on providing them with all their crafted items the rules don't work like that.
Yeah, I'm not sure that's a "rule." Especially since it's explicitly labelled as not a "rule," but a "guideline."
As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
So, "if your GM and group allow other people to benefit from your feats, it may be possible for everyone to piggyback onto the wizard's CWI and no one else should take it."
How did I guess someone was going to say that. All guidelines, examples, and "rules" are rules. They are in the rules books. Heck, even the Devs have stated this.
Calling a guideline "not a rule" when it is a rule is just an excuse for people to ignore it. Guess what? You can ignore any or all of the rules. But overriding a rule (guideline, example, whatever) should be done on purpose.
Should I perhaps have phrased it as 'unless your GM is going to ignore the rules....'? Maybe. But that goes without saying since it is rule 0.
How did I guess someone was going to say that. All guidelines, examples, and "rules" are rules. They are in the rules books. Heck, even the Devs have stated this.
Calling a guideline "not a rule" when it is a rule is just an excuse for people to ignore it. Guess what? You can ignore any or all of the rules. But overriding a rule (guideline, example, whatever) should be done on purpose.
Should I perhaps have phrased it as 'unless your GM is going to ignore the rules....'? Maybe. But that goes without saying since it is rule 0.
We kinda rotary dm as well, so i will speak to the entire party, but we may increase party WBL by about 25%.
EDIT: kinda use the rule to cover the entire party instead of just one of us. i agree we cant get 50% off everything and expect to stillg et the same amount of loot
And that is completely your group's perogative. :)
I was just addressing the rules as written. Not whether or not they should be ran that way or house ruled.
How did I guess someone was going to say that. All guidelines, examples, and "rules" are rules. They are in the rules books.
Big deal. So is SKR's name, and the copyright date, and neither of those are "rules."
Should I perhaps have phrased it as 'unless your GM is going to ignore the rules....'?
Possibly. You would have been less wrong, but you still wouldn't have been right. Better still would have been not to post at all.
Orfamay Quest, I was not wrong to inform someone of the rules. The guidelines are still rules. Again, the Devs have stated this.
If you choose to think of guidelines as 'not rules' that is up to you. However, they are clearly laid out as rules in rules books. Do they have the same force as other rules? Not necessarily. But they do not have to be to still be rules.
Heck, even the definition of "guideline" is "a rule that tells you how something should be done".
So, I am not wrong in any way shape or form. Guidelines are indeed rules.
Orfamay Quest, I was not wrong to inform someone of the rules. The guidelines are still rules. Again, the Devs have stated this.
If you choose to think of guidelines as 'not rules' that is up to you. However, they are clearly laid out as rules in rules books. Do they have the same force as other rules? Not necessarily. But they do not have to be to still be rules.
Heck, even the definition of "guideline" is "a rule that tells you how something should be done".
So, I am not wrong in any way shape or form. Guidelines are indeed rules.
Lets not have a fight guys. You have both helped out so thank you for that.
What are some items my martial druid should look at getting?
AoMF of course and what else?
Oh can bodywrap of mighty strikes or whatever be worn with armor?
Sorry about that J4RH34D,
Armor: Wild Armor
Shield: Wild Shield
Ring1: Ring of Protection
Ring2: ?? up to you
Belt: eventually a Strength/Dexterity/Constitution belt (probably +6str and whatever else you can afford in Dex and Con)
Body: Druid's Vestment
Chest: Quick Runner's Shirt (cannot use while wild shaped)
Eyes: Eyes of the Eagle
Feet: ?? A number of my normal suggestions are not needed due to the druid's spell list or due to not being able to activate while polymorphed.
Hands: Deliquescent Gloves
Head: Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
Headband: Wisdom/Intelligence headband
Neck: Amulet of Mighty Fists
Shoulders: Cloak of Resistance
Wrists: Spellguard Bracers
Slotless1: 2nd level Pearls of Power for barkskin are always handy.
Slotless2: Lesser Rod of Extend Spell (for barkskin)
Slotless3: Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone
Also, you may want to find or create a +5 spellcraft boosting item such as Gloves of Elvenkind. Maybe your GM will let you have Gloves that just boost spellcraft checks (+5 = 2,500gp).
beyond about lvl 8 would Druid's Vestment not become redundant?
could you perhaps switch over to a Bodywrap of mighty strikes with enhancement abilities, such as bane or the like, and stack them with an AoMF. Or have an AoMF that is purely bonuses like bane, holy, etc and have Bodywrap of mighty strikes +5 to give you to hit bonuses?
ADDED: I was thinking about something the other day to save the cost of the wild enchantment to armor, If by flavour i tend to turn into the same thing what would you think about having armor specifically made for that creature? If i turn into a medium bear ALOT why not just make medium bear armor?
Guass, i have another question for you and it has got to do with reflavouring a bit.
You know the Druid's wildshape ability? If i wanted to turn into a huge bear for flavour i couldnt do that as there are no such things as Huge Bears in pathfinder without templates.
But since wildshapes bonuses only come from the size and not the creatures actual stats, what would stop me from picking another huge animal with 3 attacks and simply calling it a bear for the purpose of wildshape?
would you allow that at your table?
For example reflavour this Dinosaurus, Allosaurus to a bear, dont give it rake or pounce and you have nerfed it and made it more like a bear
Druid's Vestment is never redundant. While a Druid always has a 'go to' combat shape there are any number of reasons for a druid to change to a 'toolbox' shape such as Earth or Air Elemental.
For this reason, you need extra uses of Wild Shape.
I agree with the special armor to start off with, but again, it conflicts with the multiple shapes issue. Additionally, you have to spend a long time putting the armor on.
My suggestion is to have the wizard cast Mage Armor on you @level 4 and for you to cast Ice Armor while wildshaped @level 5 (assumes you have taken the feat Natural Spell) until you can afford Wild Armor.
The kind of reflavoring you are talking about isn't actually reflavoring. It is creating a new creature. A simpler solution would be using the Giant template on a Dire Bear.
Unfortunately, the polymorph rules explicitly prevent templating creatures you are polymorphing into. However, some GMs do allow it.
If your GM would allow it just apply the Giant template to the (large) Dire Bear to create a huge Dire Bear. Then you have your huge Dire Bear to polymorph into.
Frankly though, while "huge" sounds fun, usually it is impractical. Large is usually plenty and doesn't have the size problems that huge has.
I read a massive discussion about the huge bear issue the other day and just wanted your take on it.
I am very temped to house rule it i9n as it does not cause any balance issues, simply tuen into a huge Allosaurus and you are even more powerful than a huge bear, due to pounce and rake.
My suggestion is to have the wizard cast Mage Armor on you @level 4 and for you to cast Ice Armor while wildshaped @level 5 (assumes you have taken the feat Natural Spell) until you can afford Wild Armor.
This whole thread started because i was trying to decide on my 3rd lvl feat :P
What is your current feat progression?
1: animal affinity (had no idea what i was doing, wanted to be able to roll 1's and still push my Animal Companion)
3: Create Wondrous items / Natural Spell (so i can cast at lvl 4) / Power attack (to push me down the road to melee powerhouse)
5: either Natural spell if i take power attack or CWI, or power attack if i take NS or CWI
7: Planar Wildshape possibly/ cleave/ multiattack
I am a bit stuck on my feat progression really as i am sure you can tell
oh i also thought about going 3: spell focus conjuration or whatever it is to allow 5: augment summoning
I suggest retraining Animal Affinity. Maybe Heavy Armor Proficiency if you are going martial and have a low dexterity.
As for Natural Spell you cannot take it at level 3 but you can retrain it at level 4 or take it at level 5.
Planar Wildshape will pretty much break most campaigns. I strongly suggest you don't take it.
Cleave is not really a good option.
Multiattack is not needed for most Wild Shape forms. The ones where it could matter are not usually worth taking.
As for Summoning, if you are going full martial I suggest sticking to martial. Summoning is a completely different path.
My suggested feat progression:
1) Heavy Armor
3) CWI
5) Natural Spell
7) Craft Magic Arms and Armor
9) Power Attack
11) Quick Wild Shape
There are other options of course but this is probably what I would do for a martial setup.
If you wanted to focus on Grab you could take feats such as Improved Grapple (requires IAS) and Powerful Shape.
instead of craft magic arms and armor could i take improved natural attack? i suppose not as it is a monster feat, but i could take weapon focus(claws) (due to another thread we chatted in).
Im not sure about heavy armor as the wild enchantment states that you gain ac benifits, it does not mention ACP. therefore non-proficiency does not apply by my reasoning, if wild wanted acp to apply and proficiency it would read (while wildshape your armor functions as per normal), instead it reads (The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape).
i could wear heavy wild armor without proficiency and it would not effect me
James Jacobs. states ACP does not apply
Yes, you can take INA. There is no restriction against players taking it and the idea that it is a monster (only) feat is an outdated idea stemming from previous editions.
Appendix 5: Monster Feats
Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct).
Do you have natural weapons? Then you qualify for INA.
However, you would have to take it per natural attack type (claws, bite, tail, etc) and for most of them that is not going to be a significant bump in damage (2d4 to 2d6 = 2pt avg increase).
As pointed out in another thread, according to James Jacobs the non-proficiency penalty should still apply for game balance reasons. It is up to you and your group how you want to rule on that.
Additionally, you would be penalized for wearing Heavy Armor that you are not proficient in when not in wild shape.
Ultimately, the Devs have never officially answered the Wild ACP question (whether ACP applies to Wild armor or not). James Jacobs' comments, while illuminating, are not official (he is not "the rules guy"). So your table has to decide for itself.
As for Craft Arms and Armor, it would provide a significant cost savings when crafting Wild armor.
Wild armor is very expensive.
I just had a brain fart (it is 2:27 am here). what would happen if i wore wild armor, wild shaped, and then put on more armor?
The universe will explode.
The best armor applies. The other is rendered non-functional. However, we are getting into a grey area again on what exactly happens.
i know enhancement bonuses dont stack, but what im thinking is like +1, wild, shadow, fortified full plate (i dont know if that could actually be a thing). I then wildshape and put on +5 fullplate.
I now have +5, wild, shadow, fortified armor. (enhancement bonuses dont stack but it doesnt call out enhancement abilities from 2 different items not stacking)
See holy arrows fired from +3 bows, they become +3 holy arrows, for +3 to hit against evil (+3 is higher than +2 and they are similair abilities from different sources so dont stack) and +2d6 to dmg
You only have one armor slot (armor is a slotted item). So only one magic armor functions at a time (CRB p459).
Ranged weapons have specific rules that allow you to stack the weapon and ammunition special effects.
but is magical armor that is absorbed into your body while wildshaped still taking up that slot. if it were occupying the slot you would not even be allowed to put on the second set of armor
you cant wear full plate if wearing a breastplate.
you are not WEARING wild armor when you wildshape, so does it still take up the slot?
We agree that i am allowed to put on armor when i wildshape, even if i was wearing armor before i wildshaped, (it melds into my body), so the armor i was wearing before cannot be taking up a slot
You are thinking of 'slot' as equivalent to 'what can I physically wear on my body'. It is only partially that. Some creatures do not have physical slots to wear stuff, but that doesn't change the magic item slot limits.
You can wear 10 rings, but you only have 2 magic ring slots. The magic is limited to 2 rings. Even if you had 4 hands you are still limited to 2 magic ring slots unless the rules state otherwise.
The magic of armor is limited to one armor, it doesn't matter if it is wild shaped as part of you or not.
that makes sense, i suppose i oversimplified some aspects of the slot system and ignored others, still a fun thought exercise. the item is not in the slot, the magic is in the slot
EDIT: i am off to sleep, i will continue this on the morrow