Suprise round / aware of opponent

[Theodor Snuddletusk]

I have a situation that i am unsure of.

It is concerning when combat starts, what is "aware of" and what gives a surprise round.

If you are a thief in a room where you are surely not meant to be and the guards find you. You have a hostage (the maid) and a dagger at her throat.

There are some namecalling and some argument, the guards wants you to leave, you on the other hand are afraid what might happen if you lower your defenses.

1) Is this combat?
2) Are they aware of me as an opponent?
3) If i mid-sentence throw my knife at one of them is he surprised, or did he see this coming? (Do i get a flat-footed attack as a surprise round).
4) If i use bluff to give the impression that i am giving up, letting the maid go and such. And the guards fail their sense motive. And than i attack. Are they still aware?

[CrescentCrux]

1) yes and no, it can be played both in and out of combat.
2) swords drawn? Yes, though even if not drawn they are aware of your hostilities.
3) slight of hand vs spot check for hidden knife, or moving to grab a knife not used on hostage.
4) again you gave hostile actions, holding a hostage, and they are aware of that. With sense motive you could presume they are less hostile but youe are still an intruder, and armed.

Up to your DM really though.

[Goddity]

I say it depends on what te guards would do in this situation. Kill you outright or arrest you. Whats the law like?

[Theodor Snuddletusk]

Crecent: So i would not get a surprise round (vs flatfooted) in the example?

I just cant really see that there is no line between aware of opponent and aware of someone that would actually attack you.

Sure, they might be aware of me as an intruder, or even as a thief. But to claim that at the same time they are aware of my willingness to straight out attack them mid-sentence would come as a surprise to them. If feks the thief let the maid go, stated that he was sorry and that he would leave. Showing all signs of remorse and fear. And than when his daggers are lowered, or even tucked into his belt he produces a hidden dagger (with a slight of hand) out of his wrist-sheath and throws it at the guard.

And lets make it even more difficult, lets say he waits for the right moment, just when the guards seem unfocused by the maid.

Goddity: They wish to arrest the thief, but would be willing to kill if pressed. They would not follow him if he ran.

[CrescentCrux]

I would say only in case 3, and best with hostage as it does assist with line of sight. As for putting them away and holding hands up, only if you pass a sense motive by a certain amount. Usually a 5 or greater then theirs.

[Theodor Snuddletusk]

Hmm.. i think you are right and i agree with you.

But what i must ask than is that what line of sight can effect.

If they view me as an opponent, than they are aware of me. Is it so that if i pull up a small xbow behind the maid, lets say i aim it under her arm and through her robe. This with an awesome slight of hand, and with another awesome bluff about "lets all relax now, i will lower my knife and we sort this out". Than i lower my knife, but shot them through the dress with the unseen xbow.

Is that a surprise? :P

I am sorry if i fiddle with rules here, i just dislike the feeling that they are aware of me and no matter what i do, say or hide they are not surprised by it.

[CrescentCrux]

A cross bow is hard to hide; even if its under her dress, she could call out as well that your intention is not as spoken ruining the suprise.

Think of it as this: you are an intruder, they are security, you do not belong. They have no reason to trust you, not even your word.

A stranger holds a knife out at you, saying you are safe as long as you dont move. Would you trust them? Most people would say no, and thats kind of how combat/hostilities work.

[Theodor Snuddletusk]

Not a small handxbow. :)

Yeah i agree with you there, but at the same time. If i suddenly now in 1 min find a thief in my house, dagger drawn. Than we argue and he begins to leave, i would not trust him. But if he in a moment when i look towards my gf throws the dagger at me, than i would be caught surprised as hell.

[CrescentCrux]

A small hand cross bow is still about a foot long and half as wide.

Anyway I think you have your answer. Your best bet is still the knife.

[Claxon]

NO.

There is no surprise round. He is aware of you and your hostile intent. Saying you do not have hostile intent does not cause him to "relax" enough to not consider you a threat. At least until your are gone, and probably for a few minutes afterwards he is going to be on edge.

[CrescentCrux]

Claxon wrote:

NO.

There is no surprise round. He is aware of you and your hostile intent. Saying you do not have hostile intent does not cause him to "relax" enough to not consider you a threat. At least until your are gone, and probably for a few minutes afterwards he is going to be on edge.

For RAW yes but a DM can make exceptions for plot or story, especially if it makes things interesting. Though escaping a guarded building after starting a fight becomes quite hard.

[Theodor Snuddletusk]

Yeah i agree with you all. I still just dont think it is much logical. But than again, that is just my opinion.

Could you use diplomacy to your advantage? If they are hostile and you get the right roll they end up indiffrent. Than you can take another to make the request "can we just settle this with words?"

If i found someone i was indiffrent to in my house i would not be threatened by them. Lets say an old lost man.

[Erik von Oseff]

1. If you rolled for initiative.
2. yes
3. Depends on answer to #1
4. yes

Initiative & Surprise in PRD

There's only a surprise round when some, but not all combatants, are unaware of their opponents. It happens before the first round of combat.

However "At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed."

If you want to do shenanigans, there are feats:
Betrayer
If you rolled really well on your diplomacy. It's just a melee attack unfortunately...
Surprising Combatant
If you're just about to roll initiative.
Sly Draw
If you're already in initiative.

[wraithstrike]

Theodor Snuddletusk wrote:

Yeah i agree with you all. I still just dont think it is much logical. But than again, that is just my opinion.

Could you use diplomacy to your advantage? If they are hostile and you get the right roll they end up indiffrent. Than you can take another to make the request "can we just settle this with words?"

If i found someone i was indiffrent to in my house i would not be threatened by them. Lets say an old lost man.

Your best bet is to try to bluff them, and see if the GM will allow that. However there are still other issues. If you walk in with your weapon unsheathed that will draw suspicion. If your weapon is sheathed, unless you take quick draw it takes a move action to unsheathe/draw it.

Another issue is that if you fail the bluff check they will most certainly be on guard. They also may decide to not call you out on it, and play along, only to set you up for a trap.

As for diplomacy you really do not know what their attitude is, but you can guess at it by their actions, and even if you improve their attitude it does not mean they actually have to trust you. It just means they are willing to help you if their attitude is improved to a certain point. Someone can not like you and still be helpful if you are convincing enough, especially if they can get something out of the deal.

[Theodor Snuddletusk]

Ok i see the picture.

One final question than.

What defines as "aware of". I am referring to situations where the target knows that something is up, but can not pin-point you.

Lets take a few examples.

1) Some giant birds guarding a nest. We knew that as we approached they would probably attack. Just not exactly when, or even exactly where the nest was.

You can be startled by sudden action even if you are expecting it. You may know it is coming but not when it is coming, and that can still result in a surprise.

2) You are in a fight with someone but suddenly he does not know where you are. Lets say you throw a smoke pellet, a smokestick or magical darkness. You withdraw a bit, make your stealth checks and attack again. I cant imagine he is surprised by your presses, but he should be caught flat-footed as he had no clue of when or from where you attacked.

[Chemlak]

2) Not flat-footed, but since you have total concealment, he's denied Dex to AC.

[Weirdo]

Theodor Snuddletusk wrote:

1) Some giant birds guarding a nest. We knew that as we approached they would probably attack. Just not exactly when, or even exactly where the nest was.

You can be startled by sudden action even if you are expecting it. You may know it is coming but not when it is coming, and that can still result in a surprise.

That's where an initiative check comes in. You know someone is a threat, and are expecting their attack, but if they beat you on initiative you're startled and off-guard when that attack actually comes.

[Byakko]

Starting combat and determining surprise is always going to require a certain amount of GM judgement call. Despite there being guidance on how to handle surprise, there's no hard and fast rule which will cover all situations. Two different GMs could run the same situation in different, but still reasonable, ways.

In the situation you describe in your first post, I wouldn't give a surprise round for any of those. The guards see a dangerous individual with a hostage. Unless they're completely incompetent, they will consider you a serious threat and be ready for and expecting combat, even if you release the hostage or try to sweet talk them. Imho, they probably wouldn't let their "guards down" until they had you in custody and had confiscated your weapons.

As has been pointed out, you can still catch people off-guard before they react, even if they're expecting a fight. This is called winning initiative.

As a final note, remember that readied actions can only be made once your turn comes up in initiative after combat has started. I know you didn't suggest otherwise, but it's good to point out this common mistake for others who may read this thread.