According to the Serpent Lash feat, it gives you the ability to reposition with a whip
But what was stopping you from doing it before? I've looked and can't seem to find any rule that prohibits you from making reposition attempts with a whip. Or am I just not reading something right?
You usually can't make a combat maneuver with a weapon unless that weapon or combat maneuver says you can, like trip weapons.
Faq says you can, just that there are advantages to doing so with weapons that have that modifier.
Oh. I think I know now. Whip doesn't threaten in your surrounding squares. It threatens in the spaces two squares away, but a reposition requires you to be adjacent. So I thinks it's meant to allow you to reposition in the further squares Whip threatens.
Ah okay, so it's about the threatened squares then
I'm pretty sure about that. But I was also almost as sure about the other thing, so I'd wait 'til someone else confirms it.
I guess this issue also applies to any reach weapon in general
Oh. I think I know now. Whip doesn't threaten in your surrounding squares. It threatens in the spaces two squares away, but a reposition requires you to be adjacent. So I thinks it's meant to allow you to reposition in the further squares Whip threatens.
Whips don't threaten at all without Improved Whip Mastery. That feat lets you threaten "the area of your natural reach plus 5 feet." As I read it, that area would include your adjacent squares.
Whip threatens the furthest circle of an area of fifteen feet. Improved mastery let's you threaten the one withing that, which would be ten feet.
In neither of these can you make a reposition without serpent lash, as the target is not adjacent to you.
Looking at it two dimensionally:
Threatened area no feats:
XOOOOOX
OXXXXXO
OXXXXXO
OXX●XXO
OXXXXXO
OXXXXXO
XOOOOOX
This is the area you threaten and can make reposition in with serpent lash. Dot is you. O you threat, X you don't.
With improved Whip mastery:
XOOOOOX
OOOOOOO
OOXXXOO
OOX●XOO
OOXXXOO
OOOOOOO
XOOOOOX
With serpent lash you can reposition with your whip in those circle squares now as well.
Whip description states you don't threaten any square of your actual reach
And reposition description says the only limit is that the enemy you're repositioning must remain within your reach except for the last 5 feet they're moved
For reference
Whip
Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.
You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon.
Weapon Feature(s): finesse, reach.
Reposition
An enemy being moved by a reposition does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Reposition feat. You cannot move a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle.
Whip
A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with a 15-foot reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.
You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon. You can't wield a whip in two hands in order to apply 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier to damage rolls.
My emphasis.
Edit: ninja'd :)
Whip threatens the furthest circle of an area of fifteen feet. Improved mastery let's you threaten the one withing that, which would be ten feet.
In neither of these can you make a reposition without serpent lash, as the target is not adjacent to you.
Looking at it two dimensionally:
Threatened area no feats:XOOOOOX
OXXXXXO
OXXXXXO
OXX●XXO
OXXXXXO
OXXXXXO
XOOOOOXThis is the area you threaten and can make reposition in with serpent lash. Dot is you. O you threat, X you don't.
With improved Whip mastery:
XOOOOOX
OOOOOOO
OOXXXOO
OOX●XOO
OOXXXOO
OOOOOOO
XOOOOOXWith serpent lash you can reposition with your whip in those circle squares now as well.
For a small or medium character using a whip, the threatened regions are the following.
Without Improved Whip Mastery. (Threatened squares are black.)
With Improved Whip Mastery. (Threatened squares are black.)
0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0
So it would appear that everything anyone had ever told me about whip is wrong. Oh well.
Whips are weird
But the question remains, what does actually stop you from performing maneuvers with reach weapons? The only limiter I've found is that it has to be a melee attack which whips still qualify as.
So it would appear that everything anyone had ever told me about whip is wrong. Oh well.
As OpukO said, whips are weird. (Though not nearly as confusing as the scorpion whip.) There are lots of whip FAQ request threads around.
At the end of the day, what bothers me is taking a feat for something i could already do essentially
Whips are weird
But the question remains, what does actually stop you from performing maneuvers with reach weapons? The only limiter I've found is that it has to be a melee attack which whips still qualify as.
Assuming that you are medium or small, have the Improved Whip Mastery Feat, and aren't using something like Long Arm to increase your natural reach, your whip layout looks like this.
0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0
All squares not marked with _ are within your reach, and you threaten any black square.
You can use Trip, Disarm, or Sunder on any opponent in your reach.
According to the Serpent Lash feat, it gives you the ability to reposition with a whip
But what was stopping you from doing it before? I've looked and can't seem to find any rule that prohibits you from making reposition attempts with a whip. Or am I just not reading something right?
I think that Serpent Lash was written between the publication of the APG and this Blog post.
Combat Maneuvers and Weapon Special Features
Tuesday, September 27, 2011Page 199 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook says, “When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.” That last sentence implies that some weapons apply their bonuses on combat maneuver checks, and some do not. So how do you know which weapons do? The answer depends on what kind of combat maneuver you’re attempting, and in some cases what kind of weapon you’re using.
Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.
For other maneuvers, either you’re not using a weapon at all, or the weapon is incidental to making the maneuver and its bonuses shouldn’t make you better at attempting the maneuver. For example, just because you have a +5 greatsword doesn’t mean it gives you a +5 bonus on dirty trick checks (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide 320), and just because you have a +5 dagger doesn’t mean it gives you a +5 bonus on grapple checks. Of course, the GM is free to rule that in certain circumstances, a creature can apply weapon bonuses for these maneuvers, such as when using a sap in a dirty trick maneuver to hit an opponent in a sensitive spot.
There is a special exception to the above rules. If you’re using a weapon with the trip special feature, and you’re attempting a drag or reposition combat maneuver (Advanced Player’s Guide 321–322), you may apply the weapon’s bonuses to the roll because trip weapons are also suitable for dragging and repositioning (this also means we don’t have to add “drag” and “reposition” weapon properties to existing weapons).
As far as I can tell, before this Blog post made "trip" weapons count as "reposition" weapons it wasn't clear that you could use a whip to reposition. Serpent Lash let you do so, albeit at a -4 penalty and only towards you. I think the Blog post made that part of Serpent Lash obsolete - allowing you to make a normal reposition attempt with any trip weapon.
Note that with the Greater Whip Mastery feat you also gain some interesting Grapple options.
Greater Whip Mastery (Combat)
You can use a whip to make combat maneuvers with ease.Prerequisites: Improved Whip Mastery, Weapon Focus (whip), Whip Mastery, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: You are so quick with your whip that you never drop it due to a failed disarm or trip combat maneuver attempt. Further, you gain the ability to grapple using your whip. To do so, use the normal grapple rules with the following changes.
Attack: You cannot use your whip to attack while you are using it to grapple an opponent.
Damage: When dealing damage to your grappled opponent, you deal your whip's weapon damage rather than your unarmed strike damage.Free Hands: You take no penalty on your combat maneuver check for having fewer than two hands free when you use your whip to grapple.
Reach: Rather than pulling your grappled opponent adjacent to you when you successfully grapple and when you move the grapple, you must keep him within your whip's reach minus his own reach to maintain the grapple. If the difference in reach is less than 0, such as is the case for a Medium whip wielder and a Gargantuan creature, you cannot grapple that opponent with your whip. If you have to pull a creature adjacent to you to grapple it with your whip, you still provoke an attack of opportunity from that opponent unless you have the Improved Grapple feat.
Tie Up: While adjacent to your opponent, you can attempt to use your whip to tie him up. If you do so to an opponent you have grappled rather than pinned, you take only a –5 penalty on the combat maneuver check rather than the normal –10.
Whips really are the most versatile weapons for combat maneuvers.
The Whip itself, is not that difficult to understand.
Well, I was thinking of the questions regarding how reach and threat range are affected by Enlarge Person.
So that clears up the reposition thing
I'm guessing the limiter for grappling is that you have to move the creature adjacent to you as per the rules? Which would make the reach thing obsolete?
From above:
Reach: Rather than pulling your grappled opponent adjacent to you when you successfully grapple and when you move the grapple, you must keep him within your whip's reach minus his own reach to maintain the grapple. If the difference in reach is less than 0, such as is the case for a Medium whip wielder and a Gargantuan creature, you cannot grapple that opponent with your whip. If you have to pull a creature adjacent to you to grapple it with your whip, you still provoke an attack of opportunity from that opponent unless you have the Improved Grapple feat.
So you can grapple with whip normally?