Phantom Pain

[jthighwind]

Some friends and I were parleying upon if Pathfinder had a ruling on phantom pain. If a save were to be required based upon a phantom pain, would that save be will, fortitude, or perhaps a will save then later fortitude saves if the will save fails?

We discussed this at length; what would you rule and why based upon what existing rules?

[Bradley Mickle]

There isn't really any good comparable rules that I see. I'd say it's a fortitude save, if any. Most pain spells grant a fortitude save. (Symbol of Pain, Eyebite)

The biggest issue I'd foresee is when do you make them roll the check? What do you make the check? I wouldn't want to further punish the player beyond the idea that they have a missing limb. I'd be too inclined to just retire the player if I couldn't find a cleric capable of casting regenerate.

[Cyrad]

There's a few spells that do pain effects. How the pain effect works would determine whether or not it's a Will save or a Fortitude save. If the effect causes actual pain in the body, then it's Fortitude. If it makes the target simply imagine the pain, it's a Will save. For a phantom pain similar to real life, it would definitely be a Fortitude save. Real phantom pains are largely physiological effects and psychological methods of treatment have proven largely ineffective. The game models pain using the sickened and nausated conditions.

As a result, I'd model phantom pains as a DC 15 Fortitude save made at the start of each day. If they fail, they gain the sickened condition for the rest of the day.

[Goth Guru]

I usually treat pain as subdual. There's no real loss of hit points. It can only make you pass out, not kill you.

[jthighwind]

Thank you for your input. My friends and I haven't posted because we wanted to see other's thoughts before adding our reasoning.

The idea we developed is the character has lost a limb, they constantly feel a slight pain where the limb was, but at times they feel a jolt of pain which requires a save not to suffer some kind of temporary penalty. There's no loss of hitpoints involved, this is long after the limb is gone.

We actually aren't looking to put this in a game. It's just a discussion of the best way the mechanics could handle phantom pain based on whatever rules we can find that already exist, or at least the spirit of the rules where lacking.

Fort saves generally apply when external forces act upon the character: heat, cold, overexertion, poison, etc. Whereas will saves take effect on anything affecting the mind or soul.

I reason it's a will save. Phantom pain is entirely in the mind, when the mind tries to interact with the missing limb it mistakenly interprets the lack of sensation as pain. The limb, or lack of limb that is, sends no signal to the mind and therefore shouldn't be a fort save. One could even argue the pain is an issue of the soul which is trying to interact through body no longer there.

Personally I'm playing around with the idea that phantom pain could be ruled as an extraordinary curse of illusory pain. The idea of a non-magical illusion is weird but the actual pain of phantom pain is truly illusory in nature; even it's name "Phantom Pain" is derivative (at least etymologically) on the idea of a Phantasm.

Although this phantasm isn't magical or visible it is mental and perceived only by the subject, totally in the mind. It is a personalized mental impression, all in their heads. Additionally, of the varying illusion types, phantasms (along with figments) remain even after a character successfully disbelieves the illusion.

Here's some quotes from the SRD for easy reference:

Illusion wrote:

Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened.

Subschool wrote:

Phantasm: a phantasm spell creates a mental image that usually only the caster and the subject (or subjects) of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subjects. It is a personalized mental impression, all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see. Third parties viewing or studying the scene don't notice the phantasm. All phantasms are mind-affecting spells.

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief) wrote:

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.