So Many Throw Questions

[Aydin D'Ampfer]

Some of these I have thrown into other threads, but I wanted to get all of my questions into one(ish) post to try and parse out some answers:

1) For the feat Rapid Shot, if you make a ranged attack with a weapon that is not of the 'Ranged' weapon class, do you still get an extra attack? Specifically, in reference to throwing things like daggers, or other weapons.

Rapid Shot:

Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.

2) If I have the feat Throw Anything, and I choose to throw a weapon without a range (like a katana), does the phrase "do not suffer any penalties" apply to the change in crit range for the attack?

Throw Anything:

Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised ranged weapon. You receive a +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls made with thrown splash weapons.

3) If I throw a weapon with 'Throwing' enchanted on it, does it maintain its crit range?

Throwing:

This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons.

A melee weapon crafted with this ability gains a range increment of 10 feet and can be thrown by a wielder proficient in its normal use.

4) If I am a Titan Mauler Barbarian, and I am using Jotungrip to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand, does the phrase "and the like" change the action it takes to throw said two-handed weapon?

Jotungrip:

At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.

5) If I throw a Large One-Handed Weapon (which I would have to wield in two hands), does it take a standard action, or a full-round action?

6) Can a Far Strike Monk Flurry, and throw Two-Handed Weapons?

7) What is a 'Thrown Weapon', as referenced in the Far Strike Monk's Proficiency, and Flurry ability? Is it any non-ammo weapon with a range increment? Does this include two-handed items with a range increment?

8) Does Weapon Versitility apply to thrown items?

9) Imagine a Titan Mauler/Swashbuckler. If the character chooses to wield a Greatsword one-handed (using Jotungrip), can I apply Swashbuckler Finesse and Slashing Grace to it? How would this impact throwing the Greatsword?

Swashbuckler's Finesse:

At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.

[Aydin D'Ampfer]

Bump?

[Rynjin]

1.) Thrown weapons are still ranged weapons. Any weapon used at range is a ranged weapon, any weapon used in melee is a melee weapon. Thrown weapons can often fill both roles, so use whichever is applicable at the time (Rapid Shot works with Thrown daggers, not ones used for stabbing).

2.) No. The reduction in crit range is not a penalty, it is simply the statistics for a non-Thrown weapon that you are throwing. All Throw Anything does is remove the -4 to-hit penalty.

3.) I wouldn't think so. It says nothing about superceding the normal stats for throwing a non-Thrown weapon.

4.) Probably.

5.) If you are Medium, a Large 1H weapon is a 2H weapon.

6.) If you can find a 2H Thrown weapon.

7.) Thrown weapons are a bit nebulous. The simplest answer is "Any ranged weapon that is not a projectile weapon" (projectile weapons being bows, crossbows, and firearms). If it was designed to be thrown, it is a Thrown weapon. They all have a range by default, so they're easy enough to spot.

8.) RAW definitely, RAI iffy.

9.) Yes.

9a.) Swashbuckler's Finesse is only for melee weapons so I'm not sure why you're asking this.

[Aydin D'Ampfer]

Rynjin wrote:

1.) Thrown weapons are still ranged weapons. Any weapon used at range is a ranged weapon, any weapon used in melee is a melee weapon. Thrown weapons can often fill both roles, so use whichever is applicable at the time (Rapid Shot works with Thrown daggers, not ones used for stabbing).

2.) No. The reduction in crit range is not a penalty, it is simply the statistics for a non-Thrown weapon that you are throwing. All Throw Anything does is remove the -4 to-hit penalty.

3.) I wouldn't think so. It says nothing about superceding the normal stats for throwing a non-Thrown weapon.

4.) Probably.

5.) If you are Medium, a Large 1H weapon is a 2H weapon.

6.) If you can find a 2H Thrown weapon.

7.) Thrown weapons are a bit nebulous. The simplest answer is "Any ranged weapon that is not a projectile weapon" (projectile weapons being bows, crossbows, and firearms). If it was designed to be thrown, it is a Thrown weapon. They all have a range by default, so they're easy enough to spot.

8.) RAW definitely, RAI iffy.

9.) Yes.

9a.) Swashbuckler's Finesse is only for melee weapons so I'm not sure why you're asking this.

Thank you for your response.

1) Makes sense.

2) Basically what I thought.

3) The issue here is that Throwing gives the weapon a range increment, and the improvised thrown weapon rules apply to weapons with a "-" in the range column. Which, by some readings, would allow all the normal stats of the weapon to apply (like how a dagger is a 19-20/x2 even when thrown, a Throwing Katana would be 18-20/x2).

4) Makes sense.

5) Where are the rules for this? I am asking because I have scoured what I can, and I can't seem to find if a Large One-handed weapon counts as a two handed weapon, or if you just have to weild it as one.

6) You can throw any two-handed weapon, but at penalties. This is the basis of this part of the question.

7) Nebulous seems...unfortunate. Almost FAQ worthy. The Far Strike Monk is proficient in all thrown weapons, which makes it seem like he would almost get 'Throw Anything' by proxy, as anything you throw is a thrown weapon.

8) Makes sense.

9) Makes sense.

9a) I was more asking for Slashing Grace. Slashing Grace says you can replace STR with DEX for damage, but does not specify only with melee attacks. Which would make it seem that you could throw a weapon, and deal thrown damage with DEX instead of STR.

[Durngrun Stonebreaker]

2 & 3) I would think so (and I would allow it in a home game), as it basically turns the weapon into a thrown weapon, but it's not listed explicitly so it's just an assumption on my part.

5) A full round action (but there are feats to change that) because it's about the effort required to throw it.

Inappropriately sized weapons:

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.

9) Slashing Grace only works with one-handed weapons so you couldn't choose a greatsword regardless of how you use it. There is nothing in the feat that stops it from working with a thrown weapon but that may not have been the intent.

[Rynjin]

You are working under the assumption that "Any weapon I throw is a Thrown weapon". That assumption is incorrect.

Drop that assumption and many things become clearer. Thrown Weapons are weapons intended to be thrown. They have a range increment by default. A Starknife is a Thrown weapon, a Longsword is not, regardless of whether you're throwing it.

[Aydin D'Ampfer]

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:

9) Slashing Grace only works with one-handed weapons so you couldn't choose a greatsword regardless of how you use it. There is nothing in the feat that stops it from working with a thrown weapon but that may not have been the intent.

Thing is, look at the text for Jotungrip:

Jotungrip:

At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.

This, to me, includes class effects, such as Swashbuckler's Finesse. And note that Swashbuckler's Finesse does not say something like "Select a One-Handed Weapon", but instead says "gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons."

Based on that interaction, the Jotungriped Greatsword should count as a One-handed Weapon, and get DEX to hit, instead of STR. And by extension, could get Slashing Graced for DEX to damage. And Swashbuckler Weapon Training.

That is, unless "And the like" only means "And other feats. Oh, and Ability Mod to Damage too."

[graystone]

Rynjin wrote:

You are working under the assumption that "Any weapon I throw is a Thrown weapon". That assumption is incorrect.

Drop that assumption and many things become clearer. Thrown Weapons are weapons intended to be thrown. They have a range increment by default. A Starknife is a Thrown weapon, a Longsword is not, regardless of whether you're throwing it.

"It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown."-"Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet."

"An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet."

So going by the book and your post "They have a range increment by default", every weapon, even improvised, is a thrown weapon as they have at worst a default thrown range of 10 feet.

I think you meant that they have a thrown range listed on the weapon chart by default. If you just say default, every weapon has a default and it isn't zero.

[Rynjin]

Must be a sharp blade to split hairs like that.

[graystone]

Rynjin wrote:

Must be a sharp blade to split hairs like that.

LOL I understood what you meant, but you have to admit the existence of a default range for just about every weapon.

It gets even muddier when the fighter group, thrown weapons, includes weapons like atlatl, blowgun, halfling sling staff, lasso, sling and the sling glove that seem more projectile than thrown.

Then you have the thrown enchantment...

It'd be nice to get an official stance on how to determine that a feature is looking for when it asks for/requires a thrown weapon. For instance a sling is a thrown weapon one place but may not be one someplace else.

[Durngrun Stonebreaker]

Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:

9) Slashing Grace only works with one-handed weapons so you couldn't choose a greatsword regardless of how you use it. There is nothing in the feat that stops it from working with a thrown weapon but that may not have been the intent.

Thing is, look at the text for Jotungrip:

** spoiler omitted **

This, to me, includes class effects, such as Swashbuckler's Finesse. And note that Swashbuckler's Finesse does not say something like "Select a One-Handed Weapon", but instead says "gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons."

Based on that interaction, the Jotungriped Greatsword should count as a One-handed Weapon, and get DEX to hit, instead of STR. And by extension, could get Slashing Graced for DEX to damage. And Swashbuckler Weapon Training.

That is, unless "And the like" only means "And other feats. Oh, and Ability Mod to Damage too."

You might have a case for Swashbuckler's Finesse but I was talking about Slashing Grace. Slashing Grace is weapon specific, like weapon focus. You have to select a one-handed slashing weapon, not a weapon you can use in one hand or a weapon you can wield as a slashing weapon, but a weapon that is a one-handed slashing weapon on its own.