My friend will be running Wrath of the Righteous down the road, 20 pt buy, and I have my heart set on making a Monk. Specifically trying out Flowing Monk of the Sacred Mountain. I have not done mythic levels yet, so I am not sure how much of this will hold true, but regardless, I am curious to hear other peoples thoughts on the level progress thus far:
Base Stats:
Str 15 (17 with Racial)
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 15
Cha 7
Class Feats:
1 Improved Trip
2 Toughness
6 Improved Reposition
10 Tripping Strike
14 Deflect Arrows
18 Ki Throw (Might get this at level 14 and Deflect at 18)
Feats
1 Combat Reflexes
3 Power Attack
5 Vicious Stomp
7 Combat Expertise
9 Greater Trip
(Haven't thought past this point)
Abilty
4 str
8 str
12 str
16 wis (maybe wis @12 and str @16)
Special Abilities
1: Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Redirection
2: Unbalancing Counter
3: Flowing Dodge, Maneuver Training, Still Mind
4: Bastion Stance, Ki Pool
5: Elusive Target, Iron Limb Defense
6:
7: Wholeness of body
8:
9: Adamantine Monk
10:
Is there any feat suggestions, or perhaps stat changes that you would suggest I do differently? As of right now I am planning on being a Half-elf or a Human. Other feats I have considered taking should I have the bonus feat are: Weapon Focus, Improved Initiative, and maybe Step up (that kind of defeats the Sacred Mountain)
I have also considered switching Combat Expertise, Power attack, and another potential feat should I take Human. (Human feat would be Combat Expertise, 3rd level feat would be one that requires atleast +1 BAB, Power attack would come at level 7)
Please weigh in :)
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Pummeling style is very good.
The issue with a manuver monk in wrath of the rightous are these.
Most your enemies will have teleport, flight, or be massive, or have many legs.
this makes tripping hard to accomplish and repositions just useless as a manuver in every build.
If your going to build a manuver monk look at tetori monk and do grappling. You will see more return.
Wrath of the rightous is 20 levels and 10 mythic tiers. Your going to be fighting a lot of evil outsiders.
Think carefully about group design and what your main enemy is. you may really want to play a monk but it might not be the best campaign for it. I do know skulls and shackels makes for aawesome monk or trip build as most enemies are humanoids.
In wrath of the rightous paladins are heavily rewarded and things that can specialize in fighting demon would be a good idea.
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1. If you want to go maneuver based - try a Dirty Trick focus - with tripping secondary.
Dirty Trick works on everything - and Maneuver Master monks are one of the few ways to make it work well since they can flurry them. Plus they don't need Combat Expertise or 13Int.
From a fluff standpoint - say you're going after pressure points. (I've had GMs hose me on dirty tricks due to my fluff talking. They only let me blind a single hydra head because I'd mentioned using a burlap bag in an earlier fight.)
2. Your stats are too spread out. Especially with a maneuver focus - you'll want to focus more on either Str or Dex. (I recommend Dex as the defenses of Str monks are rather weak - and defense is the best part of a monk.) Just pick up an Agile AoMF ASAP for damage. Try this -
Str:9
Dex:18 (includes +2 racial)
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:16
Cha:7
If you don't want to go MM - you can dump the Str down to 7 for the 13 Int.
3. Toughness isn't that good. If you build them right - monks shouldn't be getting hit that much in the first place. :P
1. If you want to go maneuver based - try a Dirty Trick focus - with tripping secondary.
Dirty Trick works on everything - and Maneuver Master monks are one of the few ways to make it work well since they can flurry them. Plus they don't need Combat Expertise or 13Int.
From a fluff standpoint - say you're going after pressure points. (I've had GMs hose me on dirty tricks due to my fluff talking. They only let me blind a single hydra head because I'd mentioned using a burlap bag in an earlier fight.)
2. Your stats are too spread out. Especially with a maneuver focus - you'll want to focus more on either Str or Dex. (I recommend Dex as the defenses of Str monks are rather weak - and defense is the best part of a monk.) Just pick up an Agile AoMF ASAP for damage. Try this -
Str:9
Dex:18 (includes +2 racial)
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:16
Cha:7If you don't want to go MM - you can dump the Str down to 7 for the 13 Int.
3. Toughness isn't that good. If you build them right - monks shouldn't be getting hit that much in the first place. :P
Toughness is not something I get to choose, it is given to me via the Monk of the Sacred Mountain at level 2, and my 2nd free feat is replaced. Monks are also a spread out class, The only way I could be less spread out would be to take less in INT, that being said I would only be increasing both my strength and wis by 1 point each.
The 13 Int was a choice only so that I could get Greater Trip, which would make it so that my foes would provoke attacks from being tripped. Combine this with vicious stomp and I am able to squeeze out more attacks per round. In the end the trade off is 1 less point in strength and wisdom for half the game for an additional attack.
I will consider dirty trick, but I am not seeing much of a difference between that and the sickened condition that reposition gives me.
Pummeling style is very good.
The issue with a manuver monk in wrath of the rightous are these.
Most your enemies will have teleport, flight, or be massive, or have many legs.
this makes tripping hard to accomplish and repositions just useless as a manuver in every build.If your going to build a manuver monk look at tetori monk and do grappling. You will see more return.
Wrath of the rightous is 20 levels and 10 mythic tiers. Your going to be fighting a lot of evil outsiders.
Think carefully about group design and what your main enemy is. you may really want to play a monk but it might not be the best campaign for it. I do know skulls and shackels makes for aawesome monk or trip build as most enemies are humanoids.
In wrath of the rightous paladins are heavily rewarded and things that can specialize in fighting demon would be a good idea.
Thank you Fruian and Eltacolibre for the pummeling style recommendation. I did consider this a while back when designing the concept but completely forgot about it last night when I wrote up the character. The original reason why I did not pick pummeling style was because I planned on getting the feat Hammer the gap.
Right now I am trying to avoid the whole "Think carefully about group design" meta gaming and the whole "this class might not be the best for the campaign". This is my fault for even bringing up the campaign that we will be running in the first place. I am playing for the enjoyment of building a character concept, not beating a specific campaign as easily as possible. My goals were just to optimize the concept, not necessarily optimize a monk in general for a specific adventure path. I wont actually have the ability to play skull and shackels because I will be the one dming it. So this might be my only chance to test out this build :/
1. If you want to go maneuver based - try a Dirty Trick focus - with tripping secondary.
Dirty Trick works on everything - and Maneuver Master monks are one of the few ways to make it work well since they can flurry them. Plus they don't need Combat Expertise or 13Int.
From a fluff standpoint - say you're going after pressure points. (I've had GMs hose me on dirty tricks due to my fluff talking. They only let me blind a single hydra head because I'd mentioned using a burlap bag in an earlier fight.)
2. Your stats are too spread out. Especially with a maneuver focus - you'll want to focus more on either Str or Dex. (I recommend Dex as the defenses of Str monks are rather weak - and defense is the best part of a monk.) Just pick up an Agile AoMF ASAP for damage. Try this -
Str:9
Dex:18 (includes +2 racial)
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:16
Cha:7If you don't want to go MM - you can dump the Str down to 7 for the 13 Int.
3. Toughness isn't that good. If you build them right - monks shouldn't be getting hit that much in the first place. :P
Toughness is not something I get to choose, it is given to me via the Monk of the Sacred Mountain at level 2, and my 2nd free feat is replaced. Monks are also a spread out class, The only way I could be less spread out would be to take less in INT, that being said I would only be increasing both my strength and wis by 1 point each.
The 13 Int was a choice only so that I could get Greater Trip, which would make it so that my foes would provoke attacks from being tripped. Combine this with vicious stomp and I am able to squeeze out more attacks per round. In the end the trade off is 1 less point in strength and wisdom for half the game for an additional attack.
I will consider dirty trick, but I am not seeing much of a difference between that and the sickened condition that reposition gives me.
yeah - downside to dirty trick is they can just move action/remove the effect, whereas with other maneuvers- overruns, trips, disarms- you provoke attacks of opportunity on top of whatever else happened, such as they get knocked prone, they lose their action que, etc.
The upside to dirty trick is it's funny. And allows for some really creative rp. Later on I think it allows for more severe malus and standard action removal, but I don't think it balances out - at least, I've noted that a lot of players have stopped taking it, suggesting the metagame gurus have calculated it as more feat intensive for your buck.
Having played a trip-focused Flowing Monk of the Sacred Mountain, I can tell you with absolute certainty that Pummeling Style is THE way to go for a few reasons.
1) Pummeling Style, overall, is just excellent in general.
2) With Pummeling Bully you can incorporate a trip attempt as a free action, whereas with straight tripping you have to sacrifice an attack roll for the initial trip. Legitimately, the only downside to Pummeling Bully over straight Trip-Monk is that Pummeling Bully only gets you one trip attempt/full round. I see multiple trips/round only being useful if you flub the first trip attempt and need to retry, but even then you're losing out on damage potential. Pummeling Style lets you do damage -as well as- incorporate a trip attempt.
3) Pummeling Style is going to be much more friendly to you against things you can't trip. I have't played the AP you're going to play, but if even 30% of the things in the path can't be tripped then you're looking at fights where you are supremely ineffective.
As far as anecdotal evidence goes: when I built my Flowing Monk of the Sacred Mountain, my DM ran into an issue with just how effective she was at -destroying- things on two legs. With a +15 on trip attempts at level 3, my DM had little choice but to throw stuff at us that couldn't be tripped or had eight legs. Otherwise, my Monk would just trivialize the fight.
(Almost done, bear with me) Additionally, I'd recommend the Sacred Fist Warpriest archetype if you're looking for straight-up effectiveness. Spells are always good and the Human favored class for a bonus combat feat can help with feat starvation. If you don't want to go that route, the Flowing/Sacred Mountain Monk build is -very- viable. You just have to be aware of your weaknesses and shortcomings.
Good luck in the game and have fun!
Having played a trip-focused Flowing Monk of the Sacred Mountain, I can tell you with absolute certainty that Pummeling Style is THE way to go for a few reasons.
1) Pummeling Style, overall, is just excellent in general.
2) With Pummeling Bully you can incorporate a trip attempt as a free action, whereas with straight tripping you have to sacrifice an attack roll for the initial trip. Legitimately, the only downside to Pummeling Bully over straight Trip-Monk is that Pummeling Bully only gets you one trip attempt/full round. I see multiple trips/round only being useful if you flub the first trip attempt and need to retry, but even then you're losing out on damage potential. Pummeling Style lets you do damage -as well as- incorporate a trip attempt.
3) Pummeling Style is going to be much more friendly to you against things you can't trip. I have't played the AP you're going to play, but if even 30% of the things in the path can't be tripped then you're looking at fights where you are supremely ineffective.As far as anecdotal evidence goes: when I built my Flowing Monk of the Sacred Mountain, my DM ran into an issue with just how effective she was at -destroying- things on two legs. With a +15 on trip attempts at level 3, my DM had little choice but to throw stuff at us that couldn't be tripped or had eight legs. Otherwise, my Monk would just trivialize the fight.
(Almost done, bear with me) Additionally, I'd recommend the Sacred Fist Warpriest archetype if you're looking for straight-up effectiveness. Spells are always good and the Human favored class for a bonus combat feat can help with feat starvation. If you don't want to go that route, the Flowing/Sacred Mountain Monk build is -very- viable. You just have to be aware of your weaknesses and shortcomings.
Good luck in the game and have fun!
Thank you very much for your input! I will certainly take this feat when I reach BAB+6. I have made a Flowing Monk of the Sacred Mountain before, only I went dex/wisdom and more maneuver base, this one will be more strength base with power attack. I will perform the combat maneuvers as AoO and defensively with redirection. The Vicious Stomp will add more attacks when I do trip people
Don't go for Pummeling Style... you want to hold a position, as a Monk of the Sacred Monk... you'll get a TON more mileage from Wolf Style.
Don't go for Pummeling Style... you want to hold a position, as a Monk of the Sacred Monk... you'll get a TON more mileage from Wolf Style.
They wouldn't have to take Pummeling Charge, but Pummeling Bully is the real bread and butter of the build.
As for Wolf Style, you're 100% right about it being better for trip builds, however you can't trip everything. I think Pummeling Style/Bully gives you more versatility overall which, in the long run, is better.
Hey, you can reduce the speed of non-trippables with Wolf Style, which is pretty sweet.
In another topic, you should go Dual Talent Human... you give up a feat for an extra +2 to WIS. Totally worth it.
Hey, you can reduce the speed of non-trippables with Wolf Style, which is pretty sweet.
In another topic, you should go Dual Talent Human... you give up a feat for an extra +2 to WIS. Totally worth it.
For the wolf style, I will most likely be fighting demons who will not need to worry about move speed, and have damage reduction to reduce the effects of wolf style... :x
Also the Duel Talent Human is a trait correct? Would that replace the +1 skill trait per level on top of the starting feat?
"Dual Talent Some humans are uniquely skilled at maximizing their natural gifts. These humans pick two ability scores and gain a +2 racial bonus in each of those scores. This racial trait replaces the +2 bonus to any one ability score, the bonus feat, and the skilled traits."
I have mixed feelings about Dual Talent. While the extra +2 is nice to start off with, in the long run I can't say it's worth losing a free feat over. Best case scenario is that you're +1 better at a certain thing than if you took the feat instead.
Often, I find a free feat trumps that +1. Then again, I tend to play exclusively feat-starved builds because I'm a glutton for punishment.