I have a kobold fight coming up. The kobold villains in said fight aren't rogues but they do have the racial trait that makes sniping -10 instead of -20. Is there any mechanical benefit by RAW to sniping if not a rogue?
You have total concealment from the target, which denies Dex to AC.
Sniping denies dex to AC which is different than making someone flat-footed, but yeah if you hide and they don't see you then it should be easier to go after flat-footed AC.
Well, if the PCs are unaware, the Kobolds will get a surprise round.
So, for that round, the PCs will be flat-footed.
Sniping happens after the first attack since you are trying to hide you position from the victim. Of course they could win initiative after the surprise round, but I am 99% sure the OP meant once normal combat was in play, and the 2nd normal attack was coming.
If the Kobolds succeed in remaining hidden using their sniping checks, then the player characters would be unaware of their location. Which would deny them their dex to AC. Which would allow for sneak attack, if that is where this is leading.
Also Wraithstrike, they would need to use sniping from their first attack onward to remain continuously hidden. If they make an attack without sniping they would reveal their position (or at least direction) and PCs would have a shot at locating them.
If the Kobolds succeed in remaining hidden using their sniping checks, then the player characters would be unaware of their location. Which would deny them their dex to AC. Which would allow for sneak attack, if that is where this is leading.
Also Wraithstrike, they would need to use sniping from their first attack onward to remain continuously hidden. If they make an attack without sniping they would reveal their position (or at least direction) and PCs would have a shot at locating them.
I know. I never said anything about them not sniping.
As I said, they're not rogues so no SA. I am just wondering what the mechanical benefit to sniping is if not getting sneak attack. So from what I'm understanding:
1. PCs come into an area empty of kobolds and roll Perception vs DC 23 (kobolds are taking a 10) Stealth checks (depending on placement also range penalties). If they fail, kobolds get a surprise round during which the PCs are Flat Footed.
2. At the end of the kobold's surprise round they all make Stealth checks at +13 with a -10 penalty. The PCs meanwhile make Perception checks, potentially with penalty from distance. If the PCs fail then when the kobolds attack on Round 1 the PCs are denied their Dex Bonus.
Do I have this correct?
That is correct.
Until the PC's overcome a stealth check they are denied dex.
I know. I never said anything about them not sniping.If the Kobolds succeed in remaining hidden using their sniping checks, then the player characters would be unaware of their location. Which would deny them their dex to AC. Which would allow for sneak attack, if that is where this is leading.
Also Wraithstrike, they would need to use sniping from their first attack onward to remain continuously hidden. If they make an attack without sniping they would reveal their position (or at least direction) and PCs would have a shot at locating them.
Sniping happens after the first attack since you are trying to hide you position from the victim. Of course they could win initiative after the surprise round, but I am 99% sure the OP meant once normal combat was in play, and the 2nd normal attack was coming.Well, if the PCs are unaware, the Kobolds will get a surprise round.
So, for that round, the PCs will be flat-footed.
That read to me like you were saying you didn't need to snipe until after the first attack. But I guess I misunderstood what you meant.
As I said, they're not rogues so no SA. I am just wondering what the mechanical benefit to sniping is if not getting sneak attack. So from what I'm understanding:
1. PCs come into an area empty of kobolds and roll Perception vs DC 23 (kobolds are taking a 10) Stealth checks (depending on placement also range penalties). If they fail, kobolds get a surprise round during which the PCs are Flat Footed.
2. At the end of the kobold's surprise round they all make Stealth checks at +13 with a -10 penalty. The PCs meanwhile make Perception checks, potentially with penalty from distance. If the PCs fail then when the kobolds attack on Round 1 the PCs are denied their Dex Bonus.
Do I have this correct?
I think technically the stealth roll should be made after the attack roll is made while sniping. But unless the PCs have readied actions or something that may come in between the kobolds attacks I don't think it is actually important.
Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
As I said, they're not rogues so no SA. I am just wondering what the mechanical benefit to sniping is if not getting sneak attack. So from what I'm understanding:
1. PCs come into an area empty of kobolds and roll Perception vs DC 23 (kobolds are taking a 10) Stealth checks (depending on placement also range penalties). If they fail, kobolds get a surprise round during which the PCs are Flat Footed.
2. At the end of the kobold's surprise round they all make Stealth checks at +13 with a -10 penalty. The PCs meanwhile make Perception checks, potentially with penalty from distance. If the PCs fail then when the kobolds attack on Round 1 the PCs are denied their Dex Bonus.
Do I have this correct?
No.
Surprise rounds are just a single action. The kobolds cannot shoot and use Stealth to hide in the surprise round because that requires a standard and a move action. So during the surprise round, they will only shoot, then during the following rounds they can try sniping.
I suggest you make each kobold's stealth check separately - some of them might successfully re-stealth and therefore deny DEX to AC on their next shot while some of them might fail. And roll those checks immediately after each one shoots. I would just roll 2d20 (different colors) and 1d4 all at once - the first d20 is the attack roll and the d4 is the damage and the second d20 is the stealth check. But I like simultaneous rolling to save time.
(You could make one check for all of them if you want, but you could also make one attack roll for all them if you want, but who ever does this?)
Don't forget that they probably cannot Take-10 on skills after the fight starts.
Also remember that if the kobolds win initiative, the PCs are still flat-footed in round 1. So the kobolds could each get 2 shots at the flat-footed PCs sniping. They might even delay in the surprise round to the top of the initiative order in round 1 - this forfeits their attack in the surprise round but it guarantees that they can go first in round 1 and it would allow them to snipe with every attack.
