So a few years ago I was playing in a Faerûn game, and because I joined the game late I got to pick a race that would not normally be allowed by level at level 1.
Now their LA is +4 but from my research their CR was a 2. Especially given how their abilities only work in shadows or darkness and lose all of their powers when exposed to bright light and especially Daylight.
So an Aasimar can wreck a Shade in a stand up fight.
Now I wanted to bring back if not this character one inspired by him and while I know Fetchlings are similar in origin they don't have the same flavor of their city and their beliefs and so forth. As well as yes a keen upgrade when moving at night.
Now I was curious of a few things.
1. Does CR 2 sound about right?
2. The character would start at level 3 correct?
3. Would a constant item of Penumbra or Protective Penumbra negate such a weakness (Unless Dispelled)
4. What does +6d% mean when it comes to a maximum age.
1. I'd stick with the level adjustment. One of the 3.5 books-- I think Savage Species-- had talk of a level buy-off system; if I'm remembering right that'd put it at +2 in the long run. But those abilities are exceptionally strong at low levels, and some of them remain exceptional clear through level 20.
2. 1+whatever their CR or LA winds up at.
3. By strict-RAW no, since the Shade doesn't have one of the three listed weaknesses that Protective Penumbra overcomes.
4. Six percentile dice. 6D100, basically.
Thank you for the input. I think LA Buyoff comes from Unearthed Arcana.
LA 4 only allows a buy off at 12 to a LA of 3, which may allow a buy off at 15th and 18th level down to LA 1.The reason I considered doing the CR routes is due to the serious drawback of if you are not in shadow or darkness you are weaker then a normal human as you lose everything including your ability adjustments.
I was curious about the penumbra spells saying you are cast into shadow, which would trigger his abilities to be active was the thought process.
The problem with the CR thing is, well... that weakness doesn't really matter?
Adventurers spend a lot of time underground, in buildings, and the like. Those are places where the weakness is moot. There are honestly very few occasions where they have to be out during the day. And when they do... well. Your third question was literally "can I do this to bypass their weakness?"
Even Daylight is ultimately a non-issue. Putting aside that it's not a spell most adventurers have to deal with, the Shade comes with a built-in counter to it. If you even suspect a Daylight is coming, use their Control Light ability to drop the light around you. Daylight raises it one step, so as long as you dropped it one step initially it comes out to a wash. Or just run an archer or caster, and never get within 60' of a Daylight spell. It's a very easily mitigated weakness, which means using it as a balance point is a hard sell.
Dunno if you ever played any of the Elder Scrolls games, but what I'm reading is a lot like Vampirism in Oblivion. On paper, the issues going out in the sun and the fact that you have to manage it to stop people from avoiding you make it something you should at least consider getting rid of. In reality, the workarounds were so incredibly simple and the benefits so incredibly good that it was silly to get rid of.
The Penumbra spells probably should work, but it's a talk-to-your-GM question because by RAW they don't.
I have played Elder Scrolls and I do know what you are talking about.
And yes I am looking for a work around, but Dispel is a nasty effect.
10% per level means at level 10 its 100%, which I took as being dropping the light down a level, I never thought of the 100% being complete darkness, but even then if its casting darkness, then Daylight should counter it, if I do it first the spell is overrun by the spell effect.
But your idea is very interesting.
But at level 5 with 1 HD and likely going to play an Arcanist (They specifically call their wizards and sorcerers Arcanists) means I have a 1d6+Con vs every opponent with 5 HD + Con.
Rather than mess around with a very powerful race, broken ideas about LA and CR may I suggest using the ARG to design a race with the same flavor, after getting your GM's ok that they will fit into his setting and campaign.
There are a number of shadow related powers and you should be able to come up with something flavorful which is not vastly better than every other starting race
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well if you go the CR route...it will be pretty penalizing:
Assuming you follow the CR system as presented in the bestiary:
Party start at level 3, you have 1 class level.
Next you will need to wait for the party to reach level 6, to get another class level, technically you will get the second class level half-way between level 5 and 6. But after the party reaches level 6, you will level normally.
Still tho, it is pretty rough 2 class levels from 3 to 6 will be very challenging.
Rather than mess around with a very powerful race, broken ideas about LA and CR may I suggest using the ARG to design a race with the same flavor, after getting your GM's ok that they will fit into his setting and campaign.
There are a number of shadow related powers and you should be able to come up with something flavorful which is not vastly better than every other starting race
I have no problem starting levels behind the others, but I also don't want to gimp the character. Because a Wizard with a +4 LA means he never gets 9th level spells. Arcanist loses out on a level of 8th level spells and all of his 9th level spells.
So a lower CR wouldn't be horrible but it would allow me to get to play those levels much much later. Honestly, at 12+ do these abilities really seem that much more powerful then a common caster?
well if you go the CR route...it will be pretty penalizing:
Assuming you follow the CR system as presented in the bestiary:
Party start at level 3, you have 1 class level.
Next you will need to wait for the party to reach level 6, to get another class level, technically you will get the second class level half-way between level 5 and 6. But after the party reaches level 6, you will level normally.
Still tho, it is pretty rough 2 class levels from 3 to 6 will be very challenging.
Penalizing is not the issue, if I could work with it is what I am curious most about.
Most of our games start at level 5 or 6 to begin with so honestly its not nearly as rough. At level 5 I would have 4 class levels right? By 6th I would have 5 and so forth unless I misunderstood you?
You might consider just using the Fetchling for the Shades or you could use the Pathfinder Race Builder to rebuild the Race in a way you deem fitting.
at level 5 you would have 2 class levels total. As in, 2 Hit dice, that's it, as in you have 2 class levels of rogue, barbarian or whatever else, if your plan is to get rid of the CR as quickly as possible.
So it would be CR 2/Class 2/X1?
What would be the X then would it be a CR or just an empty level adjustment?|
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Some clumsy way for pathfinder to do level adjustment basically the way it works:
Let say you want to play a minotaur (CR 4) for some reason. Party start at level 5.
Minotaur gets one class level, Party are level 5.
For every 3 levels (pathfinder choice), you will get +1 class level until you reach half your original cr.
So minotaur will get a class level when the party reaches level 8, then another one, when the party level 11.
So party has 11 class levels, minotaur has 3 class levels, on top of his racial HD.
After level 11, since it has finally reached half the original cr, Mr. Minotaur will level up as the same rate as the others.
Your biggest problem really is, that I can see, the shade doesn't have any racial HD...this make it very hard to even survive. I suppose you could argue with your dm to start with some racial hd, because without them, you will be looking at 2 levels by level 6.
I wasn't aware that was how it worked.
As I was not aware you didn't level up between the 3 levels.
The way I read it was at level 3 I would have CR 2/Class 1 when I hit enough EXP to hit level 4 I would have CR 2/Class 2 and when I get to enough EXP to get to level five I would have CR 2/Class 3. When I hit level six it would be CR 1/Class 5 due to the buy off.
And so at level 6 wouldn't I just be behind the party in Class levels by 1? But my ECL would be the same as theirs the CR would be an empty level unless like you said I took a RHD.
Yeah empty levels, that is mostly why I strongly suggest to propose at least 2 racial hd to your dm, if not, the cr route is not worth it at all.
Can you get me a link to where you saw this because again this is not what I had heard.
Because honestly this means at level 5 you really would be just CR 2/Class 1 and you don't gain a level period till level 6, and I guess you gain another level somewhere between level 5-6 so you would be a CR 2/Class 3 suddenly at level 6.
Which literally makes it hard then needed as you take FAR more of a penalty then just doing the CR +Class levels and not attempting to buy off the class. As according to the PF guidelines/suggestions its basically treat the CR as class levels which means going to a class is the same as multiclassing.
Monster as PC
But that does no say they do not gain levels normally, it just cites the extra level gain.
M 4/Class level 1 (ECL 5) > M 3/Class Level 3 (ECL 6.5) > M 3/Class 4 (ECL 7) is how I read that.
So for the shade for example it would be CR 2/Class 1 at level three, at level 4 I am a CR 2/Class 2 and at 5th I gain CR 2/Class 3 and at some point between five and six I trade my CR for a Class level so it would be CR 1/Class 4 and at 6th I gain a normal class level so its CR 1/Class 5 at 6th level.
If that is what you are talking about I am sorry I got confused.
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basically they go with this premise...which is like I said very clumsy:
There are a number of monsters in this book that do not possess racial Hit Dice. Such creatures are the best options for player characters, but a few of them are so powerful that they count as having 1 class level, even without a racial Hit Die.
The minotaur starts with 6 RHD [CR 4] + class levels in their system, he easily keep up with the party, he is not really behind compared to your shade having no RHD.
The part I understand you get confused, you can do it two ways to be fair:
-The first way to get rid of the CR 2, as quickly as possible, you will only start with 2 class levels but whenever the party level, you will level normally, if your party starts at level 5 of course.
-The second way that they did use with the minotaur for example would be this:
Your party starts at level 5, you are cr 2 = levels, so you will start with 3 class levels but in this way, you didn't get "rid" of the cr. So when they reach level 8, you will get one class level and now level normally.
You can tell, this is an afterthought and frankly, mostly up to your dm on how he wants to run it.
Yeah I just dont want to gimp the HP meter just so when it gets dark I look really cool lol.
It seems a Ring of Penumbra at 1500 GP or a Ring of Protective Penumbra at 18000 GP should give him his racial abilities since even though it says slightly shadowed, it just says his powers kick on in shadows. But again Daylight and unless the DM puts us underground there is a danger to be depowered.
Thanks for the information.
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Frankly like people mentioned fetchling and I'm quite sure, you will love them, they get improved concealment in the dark as well, making it very hard to hit them. Their SLA actually improves with levels, they even get shadow walk as a SLA,at level 9 and you won't have any weird attempt at convincing your DM, as you can make them fit anywhere easily. If you are playing a in forgotten realms setting, you can even link them to shadow magic, which i remember is a big deal in FR.
Fetchling sorcerer with the Umbral Bloodline is a nice way to come close to your concept.
Frankly like people mentioned fetchling and I'm quite sure, you will love them, they get improved concealment in the dark as well, making it very hard to hit them. Their SLA actually improves with levels, they even get shadow walk as a SLA,at level 9 and you won't have any weird attempt at convincing your DM, as you can make them fit anywhere easily. If you are playing a in forgotten realms setting, you can even link them to shadow magic, which i remember is a big deal in FR.
Fetchling sorcerer with the Umbral Bloodline is a nice way to come close to your concept.
They do seem very interesting, but I will admit they dont have the flavor and fluff to support them. Sure I could refluff the race but what I do love is the stories around the culture and race of Shadovars and their 2000 year mysterious disappearance into the Plane of Shadow and their seclusive and mysterious plots for the material plane.
In the Forgotten Realm Campaign Setting there is the Shade Template which doesn't have a LA adjustment but does have the CR +2 which seems to indicate this could be put on other races.
The race is assumed that you are human who got the template applied.