Hey again guys. Got another conflict of interest with a player and the rules. A player is arguing that racial weapon proficiency and exotic weapon proficiency stack for use of making two handed weapons effectively useable in one hand.
Their argument is based around the bastard sword which is standardly a one handed exotic weapon, but can be a two handed martial weapon without the exotic weapon proficiency feat for it. So the player devised that feasibly this could work both ways.
He's advocating that since elves "treat any weapon with elven in it as a martial weapon," elves who normally wield an Elven curve blade two-handed as a martial racial weapon should, by the same logic as the bastard sword, be able to wield the curve blade one handed now as an exotic weapon if they take exotic weapon proficiency.
He used the same logic for falchions in this reguard as well with orcs, since they gain racial proficiency with them. And then thought thar dwarven battle axes should become light weapons for dwarves under the same logic. My problem is, I see nothing restricting it but also obviously have found nothing supporting this notion either.
I'm curious what you all would think about this and if any of you have definitive references to this in any of paizo's works?
Thanks all!
- S.N. Rivers
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Wh...wha...what?
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Okay, first, welcome to the forums! I looked at your history and noticed you're new, so I felt bad about being so lazy with my response.
In a word, no. In a sentence, bastard swords are a special exception called out in their description. In a paragraph,
WHAT?! Your player is ludicrous, and they're obviously deliberately misreading this. How can anybody read that that way who's not just really trying to read it that way? They can't, and I can't read your post in any way that doesn't make me think they aren't! It's impossible! Hit them with a greatclub, one-handed (because you took Martial Weapon Proficiency) and keep hitting them until they're less crazy.
Uhh... Yeah, the bastard sword is a special case. It and the katana are the only weapons that can be wielded two-handed with MWP and one-handed with EWP. You can't just make a sweeping generalization out of that specific rule.
Wh...wha...what?
Well, the bastard sword as a larger sword takes two hands to wield as a martial weapon. But with exotic weapon proficiency bastard sword taken as a feat, it becomes a one handed weapon. So he felt that it was only fair that this logic could be applied to other large weapons if a race was already able to wield it as a two-handed martial weapon abd they were to take exotic weapon proficiency with it too. He feels it's the same concept.
The bastard sword is a specific weapon, and is not applying a general rule.
1) The Bastard Sword is an Exotic One Handed weapon. It's exception is based on *how* you use it. ie, Martial Two Handed/Exotic One Handed.
2) The Elven Curve Blade is an Exotic Two Handed Weapon. It is (almost) never a one handed weapon.
3) Elves treat every weapon that has "Elven" in the name as if it were Martial, otherwise all other rules for the weapon apply. (If for example there was an Elven Bastard Sword then you would apply the Exotic benefit to any Elf that had it as a Martial Proficiency.)
* * *
You can also say, "Your argument doesn't hold water. I have already disallowed it. Discussion closed."
He feels it's the same concept.
I feel he's wrong. The weapons do what their rule say they do. Not what he wants them to do.
More importantly if you (the DM) feel he's wrong, put your foot down and stop the shenanigans.
Uhh... Yeah, the bastard sword is a special case. It and the katana are the only weapons that can be wielded two-handed with MWP and one-handed with EWP. You can't just make a sweeping generalization out of that specific rule.
This was my feeling. Yet I can't find anything specific supporting why this is a special case or saying that it's otherwise different. I tried explaining the bastard sword is described asa "hand and a half" sword and this is why it's possible.
He argued that there is no mention anywhere of a rule set for determining whether a weapon is a hand and a half sword and that arguably these races coukd wield there own weapons in such a way with a racial advantage.
I was just curious if this was ever actually explained in the rules somewhere before I made a ruling one way or the other. I like to hear my players out and make an informed decision before barring something.
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Think of I this way: Each Exotic weapon has its own rules. They may doing better base damage (d10 v d8, when comparing Bastard Sword to Long Sword), they may do better crits (Falcata compared to Long Sword) or they may allow you to apply Weapon Finesse to a high threat two hander! But, at the end of the day, they *only* do what they say they do.
Otherwise we could make logical leaps like "Well, it says immune to Fire and Acid burns are a form of oxidation so clearly immunity to fire means acid too. And Electrical burns... so immune to electricity as well..."
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Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively.
Also, bastard swords are explicitly sorted under one-handed weapons. Elven curve blades are not.
He feels it's the same concept.I feel he's wrong. The weapons do what their rule say they do. Not what he wants them to do.
More importantly if you (the DM) feel he's wrong, put your foot down and stop the shenanigans.
I agree. I just like to discuss this with others who DM on the chance they've seen something that I have not. For the sake of maintaining the best mechanical balance as possible, I try to allow anything the rules allow for. I see it as the player being rewarded for their lawyer-like prowess of scouring the game rules and mechanics.
In this particular case, I humored his idea on the grounds that I've never found anything yet in the material that truly defines a "hand and a half" sword. So, if I could find someone who could site a way for it to work, iI'd allow for it.
However, it seems to me that "hand and a half" was most likely just used as descriptive wording for the particular concept of that one weapon; the bastard sword.
To put it simply, a bastard sword is not wieldable in one hand because of "special training". It's wieldable in one hand because it is designed to be a one-handed weapon, and the same design also makes it difficult to learn to use.
Otherwise I could make a similar case for a fighter taking Martial Weapon Proficiency (longbow), which, while hilarious, would drive the simulationists up a cliff wall. At which point they'd look down, cry out mournfully that logically such an ascent is physically impossible and kills their suspension of disbelief, and plummet.
The Bastard Sword (and the Dwarven Waraxe) explicitly calls out this difference in it's description. None of those other mentioned weapons do.
This is because none of those other weapons function like this.
The rule is that two handed means two handed, unless something specifically says it allows you to change that.
Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively.Also, bastard swords are explicitly sorted under one-handed weapons. Elven curve blades are not.
I see it now. "A character CAN use a bastard sword as a two-handed martial weapon." In other words, the "hand and a half" part of the description he sited has nothing to do with it, as all exotic weapons have some form of special oddity that does not otherwise apply to other weapons of it's type.
Thanks Kobold.
- S.N. Rivers
Alright, so last question. If he were to take exotic weapon proficiency for the bastard sword in one hand, could he then dual wield bastard swords each as one-handed weapons with two weapon fighting? My buddy Kevin keeps saying that it doesn't work that way, but I don't see anything wrong with it.
Sure could! They are one-handed weapons as long as you're proficient with them.
He could. His to hit penalties would make his accuracy so poor the rogue will outperform him ;)
Alright, so last question. If he were to take exotic weapon proficiency for the bastard sword in one hand, could he then dual wield bastard swords each as one-handed weapons with two weapon fighting? My buddy Kevin keeps saying that it doesn't work that way, but I don't see anything wrong with it.
Yes, but the penalties would be really high and not worth it. With the two weapon fighting feat he would be at -4(main hand), -4(off hand).
Without the feat he is at -4, -8.
Sure could! They are one-handed weapons as long as you're proficient with them.
Strictly speaking they are always one-handed weapons, but you need two hands to wield one if you are not proficient.
I'm not normally so pedantic, but as that is partly how the confusion arose in the first place...