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So, my players have made it to the fifth part of the path and last night they descended toward the first dungeon. I'm going to spoiler the rest but I would welcome any GM advice on this matter.
About the time they encountered the Scribbler he managed to perhaps ask two questions before the wizard dispelled the constant fog effect on in the halls. This angered The Scribbler who immediately dim doored away and started casting buffs.
Moving forward they notice a naked female figure laying on the floor of the temple of Lamashtu wearing a mask. Very concerned about ambush no matter how many times she yelled for help they were hesitant until the sound of approaching howls from the south drove them to action.
The naked woman is non-other than the Glabrezu using her veil ability. Also, in a plot twist, the glabrezu is the long dead Nualia. When Lamashtu had to decide which of her loyal servants to send the chaos inherent in the goddess couldn't resist.
The fighter/cavalier and Nualia have bad history since Arianne was tortured by her when she was captured in the first book. Banter ensues.
Then I heard the words that every DM prays to hear when running a glabrezu, "I wish.." I asked her to clarify exactly what she said to the Glabrezu/Nualia and this what I got. So here I am asking you folks on the boards for a bit of wish help:
"I wish you had not not had to suffer at the hands of your father and that you had found a better way, from my viewpoint, of dealing with your problems that had lead you down a righteous path and away from evil."
What twists would you put on this wording? What do you think?
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Hm. The first question is, is there even a tiny speck of hope for redemption left in Nualia at this point? I'm a total mark for redemption stories. If there is, my first instinct is to explore the possible results. It needn't be all sunshine and gumdrops, but a mixed result could be interesting.
Did the PC know she was making a wish? The wording sounds too precise to assume otherwise...
If pure darkness is your thing, you could start with the first line. "Suffering at the hands of her father", to this Nualia, might represent any efforts to introduce her to good, light, or Desna.
Can you give a better idea of Arianne's "viewpoint"? This is probably too damaging to player agency, especially for a character that's been played so long, but perhaps the wish could creatively "adjust" her viewpoint. So perhaps Arianne is remade into a champion of Lamashtu, while Nualia is reborn... as a weak and naive cleric of Desna. At best. Again, though, doing this to someone's prized character is best handled very carefully... I'd even consider talking frankly to the player about it, spoilers and all.
Again, bad for the narrative, but if not for Nualia's villainy, the PCs wouldn't be on this path to defeating Karzoug. The past is changed, heroes never arose,... a Runelord rises unopposed. I don't recommend this, save as a glimpse of an alternative timeline. Maybe have them encounter a consequence of such a timeline at the Leng Device?
(I'm assuming the double "not" is a typo. Shame... a double negative like that is priceless.)
Best I've got so far is unintended consequences. Similar to the "heroes never rise" thing, except things stay mostly the same. Even for a glabrezu, a massive history rewrite is pushing it. But in this timeline, Nualia was redeemed... into a massive incompetent. The kind who means well, but for every good deed she naively performs, three bad things happen as a result. And she's too righteous to just stop.
Anyway, that's my quick take. With a little more information, I can probably add to it. Hope this helps! :)
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If I were to be VERY cruel what she originally said was, "I wish I could have helped you."
If I had been strict on that things would be much more cut and dry. Arianne would have immediately switched alignments and started attacking the group.
When I realized what she said, "I'll allow you to clarify exactly what you said," to be fair to her.
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Here you go...
MAJOR Spoilers Ahead
Lamashtu laughs with unholy joy and grants the wish beyond even the interests of the glabrezu-Nualia: Nualia doesn't conceive in the tunnels beneath Sandpoint, she instead falls in love with the Varisian boy, saves her adopted father from the Chopper and goes to live with a traveling group of Varisians. Except now, with no Nualia to unite them, the goblins don't attack Sandpoint, the group of pc's never unites, Aldren runs amok among the goblin tribes and Sandpoint. Ghouls overrun the town, Magnimar has to march out in force to put Aldern down. In the chaos back in Magnimar, Xanesha sacrifices the Mayor (among several others.) No one has anytime to go to Hook Mountain as Magnimar breaks out into civil war - fueled by the killings by Ironbriar and the Skinsaw cult. Skull's Crossing is broken by the Ogres - several hundred if not several thousand innocents die as Central Varisia floods. No one is in a position to stop Teraktinus and no one goes to Jorgenfist, so Mokmurian and his army march for war. And now, they have arrived in Sandpoint and are in the process of crushing the last vestiges of resistance from the Magnimar and Sandpoint forces. The pc's have 30 minutes (60 minutes tops) to put the Scribbler down and find the secret of Runeforge before the Giants overrrun the Scriibbler's lair. They need to escape Sandpoint, make their way to Runeforrge, get Dominant Weapons and find the location of Xin Shalast. The only way they can stop Mokmurian now is by taking out Karzoug. That will kill Mokmurian too and break the Giant army.
The Glabrezu always fulfills the wisher's need in the most destructive way possible.
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Here you go...
MAJOR Spoilers Ahead
** spoiler omitted **
Not bad, but a big rewrite. Not that my suggestions are ever like that... :)
With what I have so far, I still like my final idea. Did Arianne ever make any serious attempts to offer redemption earlier in the story? The "good ending" is on the table too... remake Nualia as a cohort for her. And if you still want to bring the pain, well... Lamashtu won't be too happy. And they just released a miniature for her.
Some of my earlier questions haven't been addressed. You don't have to, but I can always help more... :)
If I were to be VERY cruel what she originally said was, "I wish I could have helped you."
If I had been strict on that things would be much more cut and dry. Arianne would have immediately switched alignments and started attacking the group.
When I realized what she said, "I'll allow you to clarify exactly what you said," to be fair to her.
If you go this route, I would not change Arianne's alignment, rather have her convinced beyond any doubt (and no save) that Nualia is cursed and if they can break her curse, Nualia can be restored. Arianne should not use lethal force to protect Nualia, at least at first. The other players should be told that killing the Glabrezu will end the effect on Arianne. Of course, other options like break enchantment or limited wish might work as well. If combat does break out, Glabrezu happily tries to kill the other pc's, saving the cavalier for last. If someone does die, you could have the wish come true - the sacrifice of a good character calls on <appropriate deity for your pc group> to intervene and redeem Nualia from Glabrezu to mortal form.
All the options here (meaning any wish outcome) could be very disruptive to the campaign pending your players tolerance for these kind of challenges/difficulties.
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Here you go...
MAJOR Spoilers Ahead
** spoiler omitted **Not bad, but a big rewrite. Not that my suggestions are ever like that... :)
With what I have so far, I still like my final idea. Did Arianne ever make any serious attempts to offer redemption earlier in the story? The "good ending" is on the table too... remake Nualia as a cohort for her. And if you still want to bring the pain, well... Lamashtu won't be too happy. And they just released a miniature for her.
Some of my earlier questions haven't been addressed. You don't have to, but I can always help more... :)
It's a big history re-write but the rest of the AP could be played unchanged since Runeforge and Xin Shalast are unchanged by events in Varisia. Tybid could add your suggestions about the Leng Device - with it the pc's could travel back and prevent the cavalier from making the wish and restore the original, less awful timeline.
Heck, the cavalier could get a message "Bill and Ted like" from her future self warning her not make a wish. (Message comes via Leng Device.). The players just have to remember to send the message when they get there. :)
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Oh, sorry about that. I answered way too quickly on my rush out the door. Let me address them.
1.) I would say that yeah she has room for it. She did some horrible things but after their short banter, and finding out what actually happened to drive Nualia to evil made Arianne genuinely feel for her. Even in her new Glabrezu form.
2.) Arianne is a watch sergeant of sand point and a follower of Sarenrae. She is neutral good but desperately strives toward law. She often makes attempts to try and reach out to creatures, sometimes in jest and sometimes honestly to try and offer them another option. It doesn't usually work. She's also a cavalier that is oath bound to protect Sandpoint at all costs.
3.) Yeah it was a total typo.
4.) Actually the redemption thing might be a sticking point for her character because when Nualia went into negatives in their original fight Arianne didn't make an attempt to take her into custody. She immediately chopped off her head (received a wrath pt) in retribution for the torture she suffered.
I actually really like Latrecis' idea but something tells me that my players are the kind of people who would kind of get up in arms about it. Of course so few of them are actually remnants of the original group that being put out by erasing all of their work wouldn't be a huge issue.
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So the wish comes true.
Instead of condemning the pregnancy her father supports her and tries to help her get ready for motherhood.
This in turn drives her into deeper depths of hatred and depression than his previous reaction as she realizes that the only traps on her freedom aren't imposed - but rather self inflicted. She tries to use 'herbs' to end things early but she is cured by her father when she is sick.
Through the healing magic her father uses she gives birth to a fully fledged demon baby - which promptly teleports to the abyss - the rest of the story plays out in a similar way - the party gets the vision of the change of how things play out - as it fades - back to the room.
"poof" - a Hezrou enters - and says 'you called mother?'
Just a thought...
These wish results seem a little... extensive. I think changing the timeline to the extent we're talking about in this thread is pretty evidently beyond the power of a single wish to accomplish.
Further given that the glabrezu is, itself, Nualia, I don't think it's under any particular obligation to wish itself out of existence. So, probably, we should discard results that would end up with that, which rules out most of the outcomes where Nualia never turns evil. Those create a paradox anyway.
It's a very hard wish to find a good answer to; I'd be tempted to have the glabrezu ask some more questions fishing for a better wish to corrupt.
In the absence of that I might do something a little less rude than a full alignment change/attack the party and do something like give the player the Lamashtu's Mark as a "bonus" feat; after all, having another person with that around "could have helped" Nualia, and it's more in scope for the power of a single wish.
I would also tie some kind of additional drawback to it (maybe one of the literal drawbacks from the trait system - a reflavored Zealous (Lamashtu) might be a fun choice to penalize a melee character) and provide some sort of process by which it could be removed.
It also gives you the opportunity to move them down the alignment chart if they decide to make use of the active power of the feat, too. Temptation and all that.
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These wish results seem a little... extensive. I think changing the timeline to the extent we're talking about in this thread is pretty evidently beyond the power of a single wish to accomplish.
Further given that the glabrezu is, itself, Nualia, I don't think it's under any particular obligation to wish itself out of existence. So, probably, we should discard results that would end up with that, which rules out most of the outcomes where Nualia never turns evil. Those create a paradox anyway.
It's a very hard wish to find a good answer to; I'd be tempted to have the glabrezu ask some more questions fishing for a better wish to corrupt.
In the absence of that I might do something a little less rude than a full alignment change/attack the party and do something like give the player the Lamashtu's Mark as a "bonus" feat; after all, having another person with that around "could have helped" Nualia, and it's more in scope for the power of a single wish.
I would also tie some kind of additional drawback to it (maybe one of the literal drawbacks from the trait system - a reflavored Zealous (Lamashtu) might be a fun choice to penalize a melee character) and provide some sort of process by which it could be removed.
It also gives you the opportunity to move them down the alignment chart if they decide to make use of the active power of the feat, too. Temptation and all that.
Redemption fetish aside, I agree with and/or like this. :)
These wish results seem a little... extensive. I think changing the timeline to the extent we're talking about in this thread is pretty evidently beyond the power of a single wish to accomplish.
Further given that the glabrezu is, itself, Nualia, I don't think it's under any particular obligation to wish itself out of existence. So, probably, we should discard results that would end up with that, which rules out most of the outcomes where Nualia never turns evil. Those create a paradox anyway.
It's a very hard wish to find a good answer to; I'd be tempted to have the glabrezu ask some more questions fishing for a better wish to corrupt.
In the absence of that I might do something a little less rude than a full alignment change/attack the party and do something like give the player the Lamashtu's Mark as a "bonus" feat; after all, having another person with that around "could have helped" Nualia, and it's more in scope for the power of a single wish.
I would also tie some kind of additional drawback to it (maybe one of the literal drawbacks from the trait system - a reflavored Zealous (Lamashtu) might be a fun choice to penalize a melee character) and provide some sort of process by which it could be removed.
It also gives you the opportunity to move them down the alignment chart if they decide to make use of the active power of the feat, too. Temptation and all that.
Not to go all Obi-Wan but it depends on your point of view...
The conception of her child who dies in child birth might be argued as the straw that broke the camel's back. It's not beyond the power of a wish (my interpretation) to wish for one event not to happen - Nualia does not conceive in the tunnels under Sandpoint.
Now the character's wish is pretty vague, the initial ruling could be it's too indeterminant to action - the wish needs to be more specific. The pc's could interrogate Nualia - for her part she might confess the birth was the last bad thing since she probably doesn't believe removing any one event would change her path. Indeed she might bait the pc's with this information tempting them to wish the child lives (since a demon baby to her eyes would be cool.) The pc's might wish for the child to live (with all the bad ramifications) or might think they are outwitting her (pending their knowledge about her background) and decide on erasing the conception itself (since the child dies anyway, no karma angst there.)
I also might observe that the Glabrazu (Nualia) gets her power from Lamashtu so just because the wish might not be what Nualia wants doesn't mean it won't happen if Lamashtu thinks it would create more suffering and chaos (she doesn't care about Nualia in the slightest way.)
Again, all in my interpretation but a wish granted in this way should make a reasonable effort to accomplish the stated goal, however perverted or unintended the method. I'm not sure giving Arianne Lamashtu's Mark meets the criteria since it's unclear it would even come close to accomplishing Nualia's redemption. That's why I suggested the awful outcome I did. Despite the fact that an awful lot of people suffer and die, Nualia is actually redeemed. That's what you get if choose to get a wish from a Demon.
Whatever happens, the wish outcome should arguably make the desired outcome possible. Another example: the wish actively harms the Glabrezu - strips it of SR or DR or afflicts it with bestow curse, all to make it easier to slay. And when it dies, anyone who wants to can argue with Pharasma for her redemption. And the cavalier should accumulate some serious corruption points - rendering her more vulnerable to further seduction by Lamashtu. Again Lamashtu doesn't give a crap about Nualia - she's already fallen - the Demon Queen wants to get her hooks in the cavalier.
I think it's important to set the bar for wish power level at a point where you don't regret it later when PCs get access to wishes from sources that don't deliberately corrupt the wording (like, for example, casting it themselves). YMMV, but allowing wishes to change events that far back (and the ensuing cascade of alternate outcomes) is essentially giving a license for complete campaign derailment, to me.
I think whether or not Lamashtu is really the one granting the wish is pretty much down to how you want your own game to work, in any case. For my table, the demon might *serve* Lamashtu, and thus would be worried about consequences to itself depending on how it granted it, but would ultimately be making the interpretation itself. For me, if the wish was intended to work the way you suggest, it would need to have the miracle spell as a SLA instead.
Also, I was ignoring the clarification about the 'intent' of the wish, because I wouldn't give my PCs an out like that for a demon wish. :)
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So after going over all the suggestions I decided on a plan that kind of meshes several ideas. The plan of course has the possibility of causing significant disruption or maybe even throw the game off the rails.
If you play in my game I warn you to stop here.
Nualia, under advice from Arianne, ran away from home and joined a caravan of Varisians. She would later swing this into a life as an inquisitor of Desna.
The group was always one step behind in the events of the path.
Aldern, and one of the former PC's as his ghast queen, terrorized the region.
The party returned and struck them down only to discover their old friend Ameiko had been swayed by her troublesome brother into a cult in Magnimar and taken part in a series of murders. Only able to mete out vengeance they kill Tsuto, Ameiko, Ironbriar, and Xanesha. (Ameiko is taking the place of Nualia as the Glabrezu).
Nualia meets the group again and becomes Arianne's cohort.
The flood happens and thousands die. The group discovers the source, killing Barl but not Lucrecia in the process. The attack on Sandpoint reduces it to ruins. The survivors end up at Thistletop in hiding.
The group discovers the location of Jorgenfist from Barl the group travels there to try and stop Mokmurian. Discovering the remnants of a huge army having departed the group clears out the ancient fortress and the Tharassic Library where they learn of Runeforge. A place that might provide clues to Mokmurian's Ancestral Lord, Karzoug. Perhaps a way to stop him.
Already well behind Mokmurian the group reasons to rush to Sandpoint and get to the Scribbler before him. Mokmurian's army now includes stone giants, frost giants, ogres (most of hook mountain), human mercenaries, and the 'best' pirate fleet that a stone giant can buy in Riddleport.
Magnimar is in full war mode. They've hired the entire Order of the Nail mercenary compliment to try and save the city and drummed up as many soldiers as they can. Most of the villages on the Lampblack have fallen.
So the group is in the exact same position it was before but with cohort Nualia. To top matters off they have just seen an image of Arianne appear on the wall above the altar clearly conveying that Arianne should not make the wish.
Lamashtu (me) is playing the long game here and flipping a coin. When they reach the Leng Device Arianne will have the option of telling her younger self not to make the wish or to just go on as things currently are.
Meanwhile in the upcoming dungeon and in every chance I get I will be playing up Nualia as being WORTH saving. The most caring heartfelt and brave person I can manage. It will become readily apparent that she cares about Arianne as a sister (or more) and will frequently take risks to help her.
Thus I will have the heartfelt moment where Nualia asks, "What is this? What are these images? Clearly this is one of Karzoug's tricks?! Please don't make me go back to being that thing?"
If Arianne chooses not to stop the wish, she will receive the mark of Lamashtu and be subjected to constant whispers and nightmares her soul effectively belonging to the mother of monsters the hope being that this will ultimately derail the group from stopping Karzoug or at least put a corrupted Arianne in a position to seize the power and wealth of Xin Shalast.
Thanks guys for all the help. I hope my game doesn't fall apart because of these decisions. :)
EDIT: I actually cleared this turn of events with the group (which I technically didn't need to do) and they were all pretty onboard with it.