I want to switch places of some abilities and I don't know how this will work, so please help me to get it using simple example:
1 lvl - I'm picking a feat that grants extra class ability
3 lvl - I'm getting a class ability that has feat granted extra class ability as prerequisite
5 lvl - I'm choosing another class ability then retraining it for that exact same class ability I got through feat, afterwards retraining now useless extra class ability feat to something else
All prerequisites are met and I'm eligible for all those things on their respective levels - then question is - can I have a class ability twice on my character in this case?
Feat
You may change one feat to another through retraining. Retraining a feat takes 5 days with a character who has the feat you want. The old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability. If the old feat is a bonus feat granted by a class feature, you must replace it with a feat that you could choose using that class feature.
Relevant quote with emphasis added. It doesn't matter that you no longer need the feat to qualify. It says you can't retrain it if it was used as a prerequisite. This may seem like a harsh reading, but since this is theory-crafting, and not trying to fix an already existing character, there doesn't seem to be much excuse for wiggling around it.
If you don't mind me asking, what is the ability you are trying to get early access to? There may be another way around it.
What I meant with the theory-crafting bit was that I would probably allow a player to fix their character if they realized along the way that they wanted to do something differently. That's literally what the retraining rules are for. Designing a character from the ground up with retraining in mind as a way to trick the system into giving you early access to a class feature without any downside doesn't sit right with me though.
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I'm actually fine with people intending to retrain along the way. Some feats are very handy at low levels but become less and less interesting as you level up - retraining means that those feats still see some use and feel less like trap options.
without any downside
I thought you needed to spend time and money to retrain. How is that "without any downside".
Second, I'm not sure why the rule should CARE why you retrain as long as the rules have been followed. And the rules are CLEARLY not just about "to fix their character if they realized along the way that they wanted to do something differently" It has rules for adding hp's and languages that had nothing to do with replacing bad picks and are straight upgrades.
If you don't mind me asking, what is the ability you are trying to get early access to? There may be another way around it.
Barbarian Rage Power. I need Spell Sunder at level 8, so I'm picking Witch Hunter as feat at level 7.
I'm fully aware of retraining cost and ready to embark on a quest of finding Veteran Rager.
I'm struggling a little bit to visualize your build, but have you considered retraining a rage power rather than the feat?
I'm struggling a little bit to visualize your build, but have you considered retraining a rage power rather than the feat?
No, it's your typical Beast Totem/CaGM chassis, so I must take pounce at level 10 and CaGM at level 12. All powers before those are preqs.
@Kudaku, Sure, but having a situational feat here and there that you grow out of is different than building your character on top of one and then trying to 'hot-swap' it later on. It's a bit of a gray area that I wouldn't be so quick to approve of.
@Graystone, I'm not sure 250gp counts as a downside at level 5, but regardless, the language of retraining a feat says that you cannot retrain a feat that was used for prerequisites. It doesn't say "feat being used for"; it says "that was used for". By RAW, that means you cannot do it unless the GM house-rules it in their favor, which I would be inclined to do along the way, but disinclined to do if they were planning it out ahead of time. I could be convinced otherwise, if it was really important to the player, but my gut reaction is 'no'.
@Sergeek, I am a little confused. Are you trying to get the Rage Power class ability at level 1 instead of waiting until level 2? Or are you just trying to get an Extra Rage Power, as the feat of the same name? Or are you multiclassing? Sorry, but I'm still not clear on what you're trying to do here. >.< It may be that I misunderstood your original intent, as I originally thought that you were trying to gain access to a class feature from a different class, and then multiclass into it, at which point the original method of gaining that feature would be moot. Is that not the case?
I'm really bad about this sort of thing. I just let my players switch things out at every level up, the only cost being that they have to write why and how they're doing it in game, so they have to maintain some degree of internal consistency.
It actually seems to enrich the story being told though, so I'm good with it.
@Graystone, I'm not sure 250gp counts as a downside at level 5, but regardless, the language of retraining a feat says that you cannot retrain a feat that was used for prerequisites. It doesn't say "feat being used for"; it says "that was used for". By RAW, that means you cannot do it unless the GM house-rules it in their favor, which I would be inclined to do along the way, but disinclined to do if they were planning it out ahead of time. I could be convinced otherwise, if it was really important to the player, but my gut reaction is 'no'.
IMO you can read that two ways. One is that if that feat was ever a prerequisite it can never, ever to switch. The other is that you can't retrain a prerequisite that you're using currently as a prerequisite as you'd have to switch the ability needing the prerequisite first. Only two makes any sense to me so that's the way I'm reading it. As long as the character is never without the prerequisite, I can't see an issue, both by RAW and RAI.
If you feel like reading it the first way, feel free but I don't agree with it. reading it that way means that even after I retrain die hard, I could never change endurance because at one point I used it as a prerequisite. Makes no sense.
Sorry, but I'm still not clear on what you're trying to do here. >.<
I want to get Rage Power a bit sooner with Extra Rage Power feat, then swap it later to a different feat when I'll have free Rage Power slot later.
Okay, gotcha, thanks. So you need Superstition, Witch Hunter, Spell Sunder, Lesser Beast Totem, Beast Totem, Greater Beast Totem and Come and Get Me, and you want them all by level 12. That's 7 rage powers, and normally, you only get 6, so you need the extra one. That makes sense, but why would you want to retrain out of the feat? You won't have a spare rage power until level 14, and wouldn't you want to spend it on a new rage power instead of a new feat? Extra Rage Power is a great choice for your character, and you may actually want to take it more than once, with the number of powers you have in mind.
Here's the main issue with the plan as far as RAW is concerned… You're not really allowed to 'save' level ups for later. If you were trying to retrain Witch Hunter (or whichever power was granted by the feat), for instance, you would then be left with Spell Sunder sitting on top, not having its prerequisites met. You may level up to 14 later and have a rage power you don't need, but what about before you level up? A lenient GM might say that you just couldn't use the benefits of the rage power until its prerequisite was replaced, but by the rules, you're not allowed to leave it hanging there.
As the other posters point out above, there are some who would just hand-wave it and allow you to retrain whatever you wanted, and I am not saying that's a bad thing or wrong way to play (it may in fact be more fun for everyone involved); I'm just pointing out that it's technically not allowed without a house-rule. Have you asked your GM what their stance on it is? If your GM says it's fine, then yay! Problem solved!
If your GM says it's not fine, then here's a quick solution that doesn't make a mess:
At level 2, select either Lesser Beast Totem or Superstition;
At level 4, select either Lesser Beast Totem or Witch Hunter (or Superstition);
At level 6, select whichever one is still left to pick;
At level 7, use your feat to get Spell Sunder;
At level 8, select Beast Totem;
At level 10, select Greater Beast Totem;
At level 12, select Come and Get Me.
This way, the rage power you pick with the feat is never used as a prerequisite, and you can retrain the feat at level 13.99 as you planned without any problem.
You can't have "extra" of something if you don't already have.
Extra Rage
You can use your rage ability more than normal.
Prerequisite: Rage class feature.
Benefit: You can rage for 6 additional rounds per day.
Special: You can gain Extra Rage multiple times. Its effects stack.
This means you don't meet the prerequisite for the feat until you have the class feature. Which doesn't occur until lvl 2.
In other words... you don't qualify for feat until you reach lvl 2, therefore, you can't take it at lvl 1.
sorry. would be nice if you could.
Different feat, gossamar4. We're talking about Extra Rage Power, and Sergeek the Mad is trying to use it at level 7, not 1. I was unsure earlier about their plan, but they clarified in their last post.