The "You may not reveal the same card for its power more than once per check or step" rule doesn't apply here - the reveals are for different card powers:
1) Use Heggal's power (to heal himself): Instead of 1st exploration Heggal reveals Swab to shuffle 1d4+1 random cards from his discard pile...
2) Use Swab's power (he is still in your hand): reveal Swab when you are required to shuffle random cards from your discard pile, choose them instead and shuffle him into your deck too.
...then discard Swab - you can't, he is not in your hand anymore.
Looks like it would work to me. You ignore the impossible part of Heggal's power.
Hmmm. Seems fishy to me...
I would think you couldn't reveal swab twice since he is already being revealed for Heggal's power. Doesn't a card remain revealed until that "step" or until the reason it is being revealed is resolved? The difference between this and display being that, display lasts until the end of the turn not the effect.
I would think you couldn't reveal swab twice since he is already being revealed for Heggal's power. Doesn't a card remain revealed until that "step" or until the reason it is being revealed is resolved? The difference between this and display being that, display lasts until the end of the turn not the effect.
No, you're mixing up reveal and display in the first part. Reveal is like a flash, display leaves them out. EDIT: This is why you can reveal an animal to get d4+x with Lini, then discard the same card to get a d10 in str/dex.
Display lasts until it says otherwise, not until end of turn.
Assuming this is an issue, it's easily patched by changing Heggal's power to use the word display.
I would think you couldn't reveal swab twice since he is already being revealed for Heggal's power. Doesn't a card remain revealed until that "step" or until the reason it is being revealed is resolved? The difference between this and display being that, display lasts until the end of the turn not the effect.No, you're mixing up reveal and display in the first part. Reveal is like a flash, display leaves them out. EDIT: This is why you can reveal an animal to get d4+x with Lini, then discard the same card to get a d10 in str/dex.
Display lasts until it says otherwise, not until end of turn.
Assuming this is an issue, it's easily patched by changing Heggal's power to use the word display.
I've actually wondered in the past why the generic cleric ability hasn't always been display, largely for this type of confusion. This feels like a case of, currently legal within the rules, but goes against the intent of the design.
I've actually wondered in the past why the generic cleric ability hasn't always been display, largely for this type of confusion. This feels like a case of, currently legal within the rules, but goes against the intent of the design.
Thats why I posted the question - looks legit, but doesn't feel like it. There is a potential window of action between the "reveal a card to activate the power" and "then discard that card" that could allow you to use that card in a way that could remove it from your hand.
But to be fair this is a very specific situation:
- AFAIK Swab is the only card that has the interrupt-like power: "when you are required to shuffle" - reveal and shuffle this card.
- AFAIK there are only 2 Swabs in all S&S
- it only happens if Heggal has the Swabs AND heals himself
Taking into account that he supposedly is the best healer, especially in the rejuvenator role - is it even worth addressing?
I've actually wondered in the past why the generic cleric ability hasn't always been display, largely for this type of confusion. This feels like a case of, currently legal within the rules, but goes against the intent of the design.Thats why I posted the question - looks legit, but doesn't feel like it. There is a potential window of action between the "reveal a card to activate the power" and "then discard that card" that could allow you to use that card in a way that could remove it from your hand.
But to be fair this is a very specific situation:
- AFAIK Swab is the only card that has the interrupt-like power: "when you are required to shuffle" - reveal and shuffle this card.
- AFAIK there are only 2 Swabs in all S&S
- it only happens if Heggal has the Swabs AND heals himself
Taking into account that he supposedly is the best healer, especially in the rejuvenator role - is it even worth addressing?
In a vacuum, no it probably doesn't make a big difference (though I'd argue not having to discard to use his power is a pretty big bonus). However, the bigger issue in my opinion is future-proofing. If it works the way you describe (and I see no reason to think otherwise), you essentially can't create any cards with a powerful effect triggered during a power such as Swab, or it can just be combined with one or another cleric's healing power to remove the downside of one or both. It's just something to be considered.
you essentially can't create any cards with a powerful effect triggered during a power such as Swab, or it can just be combined with one or another cleric's healing power to remove the downside of one or both. It's just something to be considered.
Agree, but then again, it would have to be: armor, ally, 2-handed-weapon or a divine-trait-card with a "when you are required to shuffle" trigger to be able to use it in that action window and shuffle or recharge cost (burry and banish would be worse).
you essentially can't create any cards with a powerful effect triggered during a power such as Swab, or it can just be combined with one or another cleric's healing power to remove the downside of one or both. It's just something to be considered.Agree, but then again, it would have to be: armor, ally, 2-handed-weapon or a divine-trait-card with a "when you are required to shuffle" trigger to be able to use it in that action window and shuffle or recharge cost (burry and banish would be worse).
With the characters we currently have. Considering the variety of clerics we already have, would it be that much of a surprise to add items, arcane, or one-handed weapons to the list of things you can use to heal? Again, this is more about future-proofing, which is why I assume there will eventually be a cleric for all seasons.
Thats why I posted the question - looks legit, but doesn't feel like it...
I share that opinion.
Not too bad though: doesn't kill the game. But as isaic pointed, may be a loophole in future combos.
Yep, as it stands it looks like Heggal has a new best friend. You won't see it a lot in organized play (especially since Swab is a Basic card), but in a standard home game he may be nice enough for Heggal to keep around for the whole AP. Changing reveal to display would fix the loophole and it would make more sense for all healing powers (on cleric powers, Cure, Surgeon, etc.). The reveal functionally does nothing but let people know what card you are using and makes sure that healing spells aren't discarded/recharged right away.
Congratulations of finding what is likely a new headache for the developers and possibly triggering an update for about 30 cards that are currently in circulation (or just 8 if they only think the cleric powers are likely to end up with loopholes like this).
How does that FAQ address the situation? You changed Swab from reveal to display but he still shuffles himself into the deck afterwards as part of his own power, so again would not be able to be discarded for Heggal's power...
I would think that the change from reveal to display would need to be made on Heggal himself and not Swab in order to properly address this.
Yeah, the change from reveal to display needed to be done on the Cleric powers, not the Swab, to close the loophole.
Chief Technical Officer
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Sorry—our discussion forked from the original, so my note that I needed to respond in this thread wasn't quite right. (That is, the FAQ I just created answered a question that *we* asked while examining these cards rather than the question actually asked in this thread.)
The answer to the original question is "Sure, Heggal can do that." We're not about to change Heggal, multiple Kyras, Tarlin, Oloch, and all their roles, along with Cure, Mass Cure, Major Cure, Surgeon, and so on, all just to stop Heggal from doing (as Mike put it) "a party trick" with one card.
Or to put it another way: Our goal is not to close all loopholes, because our game is constructed entirely out of loopholes. Our goal is to close the loopholes we can't abide.
I like the party trick version, it made me grin
Perhaps a more elegant solution - if it's something that needs to be future-proofed - is to redefine or cleanup the definition of "reveal." No need to change any language on the cards.
It seems to me - and check me if I'm wrong, as I haven't been playing that long - that the intent of reveal (like other card-handling command words) is to tell you what to do with a card during the cleanup after it's used.
So suppose Damiel uses a crossbow, a Blast Stone, a mollied Potion of Fortitude, and an Aid spell, all on a combat check. It seems to me that you leave the cards out for a moment while you assemble and roll your dice, then clean them up as you're resolving the check. So you would:
-Resolve "when encounter"
-Optionally evade if you can
-Resolve "before you act"
-Act:
---Lay out the cards you're using (crossbow, Blast Stone, potion, spell)
---Get and roll the dice (2d8+3d6+1d4+2)
---Handle the cards according to their command words (take in hand, banish or recharge, discard, roll to recharge or discard)
-Resolve "after you act"
-Resolve the encounter.
In the same way, when Heggal uses his spontaneous cure power:
-Act:
---Lay out the card you're using (Swab)
---Get and roll the dice (1d4+1 cured)
---Handle the cards (Swab is about to go back to hand, but "discard the card you revealed' happens: Swab is discarded.)
-End action.
The problem is occurring because "reveal" is being read as the revealed card is going back to hand before you assemble and roll the dice. If a revealed card remains until its effect is resolved, this is avoided.
I've actually wondered in the past why the generic cleric ability hasn't always been display, largely for this type of confusion. This feels like a case of, currently legal within the rules, but goes against the intent of the design.
Display didn't exist at the time the cure ability was written; that keyword was introduced to handle problems with long-duration effects like Strength and Speed. Oloch just retained the old language for consistency.
Perhaps a more elegant solution - if it's something that needs to be future-proofed - is to redefine or cleanup the definition of "reveal." No need to change any language on the cards.
It seems to me - and check me if I'm wrong, as I haven't been playing that long - that the intent of reveal (like other card-handling command words) is to tell you what to do with a card during the cleanup after it's used.
So suppose Damiel uses a crossbow, a Blast Stone, a mollied Potion of Fortitude, and an Aid spell, all on a combat check. It seems to me that you leave the cards out for a moment while you assemble and roll your dice, then clean them up as you're resolving the check. So you would:
-Resolve "when encounter"
-Optionally evade if you can
-Resolve "before you act"
-Act:
---Lay out the cards you're using (crossbow, Blast Stone, potion, spell)
---Get and roll the dice (2d8+3d6+1d4+2)
---Handle the cards according to their command words (take in hand, banish or recharge, discard, roll to recharge or discard)
-Resolve "after you act"
-Resolve the encounter.In the same way, when Heggal uses his spontaneous cure power:
-Act:
---Lay out the card you're using (Swab)
---Get and roll the dice (1d4+1 cured)
---Handle the cards (Swab is about to go back to hand, but "discard the card you revealed' happens: Swab is discarded.)
-End action.The problem is occurring because "reveal" is being read as the revealed card is going back to hand before you assemble and roll the dice. If a revealed card remains until its effect is resolved, this is avoided.
That is the only difference between reveal and display. Reveal is instantaneous, display is for a determined amount of time. They're SUPPOSED to return to your hand before you roll the dice. That way you can discard or recharge or whatever for another effect. Anywhere that this is an issue the word display can be used - if we change all reveals to displays, a lot of things get weaker, especially for characters with a small hand size.
That is the only difference between reveal and display. Reveal is instantaneous, display is for a determined amount of time. They're SUPPOSED to return to your hand before you roll the dice. That way you can discard or recharge or whatever for another effect. Anywhere that this is an issue the word display can be used - if we change all reveals to displays, a lot of things get weaker, especially for characters with a small hand size.
I thought the difference was that display lasted longer than the check/step in which you were using the card, whereas reveal is during the check/step.
And I suppose my confusion with the Heggal thing is more that the power remembers that Swab is being used for it because of "discard the card you revealed," so how can it allow that card to also be played? (It could be an error in my thinking, caused by knowing what the ability is in PFRPG --- the ability to burn a prepared spell to cast spontaneous cure wounds spell.)
The power doesn't remember anything, you reveal a card and later discard it for the same execution of the same power. It isn't discard first because then you'd be able to heal the card you burned to be able to heal, which makes no sense at all. A card with memory would be something that has you keep track of information between multiple executions of its power, of which I do not think any such cards exist.
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Nope, reveal instantly comes back to your hand, and display lasts out of your hand for some specific amount of time. Whether that's the length of a check, or till the start of your next turn, that's what makes it a display -- staying out of your hand for any amount of time.
There are definitely powers and cards that don't seem right based on thinking of the RPG counterpart, I've done it as well, and probably so have most RPG players who play the ACG at least once. If display existed from the start, I think these powers would have used that. It didn't, though, and now it's just too much to errata when there probably isn't ever going to be a lot that it effects.
Basically, it's because of the order in which things happen. The discard comes after the heal, so until that point the card is still in your hand. Before you discard, the heal lets you trigger the Swab. You used that card as a cost, not for its own power, so it is still playable for anything written on it's card that applies to the current situation. By the time the discard comes around, it's just a simple "Ignore impossible instructions".
I thought the difference was that display lasted longer than the check/step in which you were using the card, whereas reveal is during the check/step.
Reveal is instantaneous. It's what allows certain little combos to work. The most famous of which in my opinion (perhaps because of my love for the character) is RotR Lini's d4+x ability. Because of how reveal works, she can reveal an animal for d4+x on a check and then play the animal on the check, or discard it to turn her str/dex die into a d10 (or even all three - see the Coral Capuchin for example).
And I suppose my confusion with the Heggal thing is more that the power remembers that Swab is being used for it because of "discard the card you revealed," so how can it allow that card to also be played? (It could be an error in my thinking, caused by knowing what the ability is in PFRPG --- the ability to burn a prepared spell to cast spontaneous cure wounds spell.)
That's just how the game works. It's not unique to the PACG. Many games have a "chain" or "stack" mechanic where multiple cards can be played in response to each other, which can cause similar situations. Even more similar and specific to this situation is simply the fact that the specific rule overrides the general, and some games have cards with specific rules (like the Swab's) that allow it to be played in the middle of another effect, like this one.