Instant Alchemy

[Richard M. Harris]

Ok just got in a discussion over the Instant Alchemy feat. Here is the text from the feat.

Instant Alchemy:

INSTANT ALCHEMY
You can perform simple alchemical tasks with
preternatural speed.
Prerequisite: Craft (alchemy) 1 rank.
Benefit: When performing spontaneous alchemy, you
can craft an alchemical item as a standard action if its
total crafting time is 10 minutes or less and you have all
the equipment and materials required in hand. Items that
require 1 hour to create with spontaneous alchemy take
you only 10 minutes, and items that require 1 day take
you only 1 hour. If you have the alchemy class feature,
you can identify a potion using the Craft (alchemy) skill
as if using detect magic as a swift action rather than a
standard action.

So the one part of this that is really in question is the standard action creation. So with this an alchemist can create, lets use Alchemist's Fire as an example.

To create an Alchemist Fire requires: 12 doses of Magnesium, 22 doses of Spirit of Wine and an Alchemist's Lab. Per the Instant Alchemy feat these items have to be "In Hand." So to break this down in a strict sense, each dose is a "Stored Item" that has to be drawn individually and then draw the Alchemist's Lab. That is a total of 35 items/35 move actions plus the Standard Action to create the item. This equates to 18 rounds to create the item. This is assuming a single character can hold all of those 34 items "In Hand" which is a separate problem.

Even in the loosest ruling you could logic where all of the doses could be drawn as a single move action, and then the tool drawn as a separate move action. The item than could be created on the next turn.

Then there is the point of the tools. A crucible and a retort, in their description, both require a heat source, but Heat Source is not listed in the recipe chart as a required tool. So does the Heat Source have to be "In Hand" as well?

Yes, I agree that I am being a little ridiculous, but RAW this is a table variation nightmare so was hoping for some educated thoughts on something I am missing or a developer clarification.

[Imbicatus]

Nothing is stopping you from having a vial of 12 doses of magnesium, and another vial of 22 doses of spirit of wine. Both reagents have a weight of - and nothing stops you from keeping several doses in a single container.

[N N 959]

Imbicatus wrote:

Nothing is stopping you from having a vial of 12 doses of magnesium, and another vial of 22 doses of spirit of wine. Both reagents have a weight of - and nothing stops you from keeping several doses in a single container.

Yes, if you know ahead of time that you want to create Alchemist's Fire. But there are scores of items that could be created with a Standard Action and to require the Alchemist/Investigator to keep a specific package for each item he or she might create creates a level of tedium which exceeds the Weapon Speed Factor table of AD&D.

The OP also forgot asking about what happens with all the tools after you create the item. Are they all just sitting on the floor? How long does it take to put them away if you want to move?

I've thought about taking this feat, but I really want to avoid Table Variation like the plague in PFS. It would be great if Paizo could provide us with a FAQ for the feat in use and provide representative examples as guideline for the myriad of possibilities.

EDIT:
I forgot to add the feat reads as if the Alchemist should be able to just whip together, whatever, in the middle of combat. Maybe that's a misconception on my part. But I agree with the OP, there are so many things not covered, a rational GM might rule zero this into a pointless feat.

[Amrel]

I don't think in hand actually means in your hands.

In hand means : "ready for use if required; in reserve"

That being said if you had all of your ingredients in front of you (no requirements on how they are organized, you might have a jar of each ingredient) and your equipment in front of you, you can proceed to make things at the listed speeds.

Can you use this to craft anything in the middle of combat, probably not. Can you use this to replenish your supplies or craft a specific item that solves a problem in the short downtime between combats, most definitely!

I don't think the ability is supposed to allow you to do everything instantly, but instead assuming you have a bit of time to set up, you can make things very quickly.

[_Ozy_]

Why would anyone care that it's a standard action unless you could do it in combat?

[N N 959]

Amrel wrote:

Can you use this to craft anything in the middle of combat, probably not.

Considering that the rule explicitly says you can craft something in a Standard Action that would normally take 10 minutes, I'll have to disagree. Considering that the feat is called "instant" alchemy and there are no stated restriction on using it in combat, it would seem that using it during combat is exactly what they intended. Had there been some sort of space requirement or no distractions modifier, I might agree with you. But there aren't.

Quote:

I don't think the ability is supposed to allow you to do everything instantly, but instead assuming you have a bit of time to set up, you can make things very quickly.

That's the question we need answering, is there any set-up required? What does it mean to have equipment and ingredients "in hand"? Is it the same as on your person or do you actually have to have it all laid out in front of you, which would be a nightmare to adjudicate.

The rules need to provide clear and unambiguous instructions on how things should handled for an obvious situation like trying to craft something on your turn in combat which would involve a move action and a standard action.

[Blakmane]

Amrel wrote:

I don't think in hand actually means in your hands.

In hand means : "ready for use if required; in reserve"

That's 'on hand' or 'at hand', not 'in hand'.

[Milo v3]

Blakmane wrote:

That's 'on hand' or 'at hand', not 'in hand'.

Actually it is for in hand as well, as the second definition of in hand is: "ready for use if required; in reserve." as Amrel states.

[Amrel]

N N 959 wrote:

Amrel wrote:

Can you use this to craft anything in the middle of combat, probably not.

Considering that the rule explicitly says you can craft something in a Standard Action that would normally take 10 minutes, I'll have to disagree. Considering that the feat is called "instant" alchemy and there are no stated restriction on using it in combat, it would seem that using it during combat is exactly what they intended. Had there been some sort of space requirement or no distractions modifier, I might agree with you. But there aren't.

Quote:

I don't think the ability is supposed to allow you to do everything instantly, but instead assuming you have a bit of time to set up, you can make things very quickly.

That's the question we need answering, is there any set-up required? What does it mean to have equipment and ingredients "in hand"? Is it the same as on your person or do you actually have to have it all laid out in front of you, which would be a nightmare to adjudicate.

The rules need to provide clear and unambiguous instructions on how things should handled for an obvious situation like trying to craft something on your turn in combat which would involve a move action and a standard action.

Sorry I wasn't clear. By craft anything, I meant that you cannot craft everything you could normally craft outside of combat, in combat. There are probably some things that you can craft now that have simpler item requirements and maybe simpler equipment, but not everything.

Even if you did have everything out in front of you, it doesn't specify how it is contained, so at most you spend a round for each item to pull it out and set it in front of you (assuming you carry jars of the stuff around). Once they are there and you have your tools you craft away.

[Amrel]

Blakmane wrote:

Amrel wrote:

I don't think in hand actually means in your hands. In hand means : "ready for use if required; in reserve"

That's 'on hand' or 'at hand', not 'in hand'.

I thought the same thing until I looked up the definition. I will post it in full below.

"Google Dictionary" wrote:

1. receiving or requiring immediate attention. "he threw himself into the work in hand" in progress. "negotiations are now well in hand"
2. ready for use if required; in reserve. "he had $1,000 of borrowed cash in hand"
3. under one's control. "the police had the situation well in hand"

[Blakmane]

Fair enough, can't argue with that!

[N N 959]

Amrel wrote:

Even if you did have everything out in front of you, it doesn't specify how it is contained, so at most you spend a round for each item to pull it out and set it in front of you (assuming you carry jars of the stuff around).

Since the rules don't explicitly cover how long it takes to set up, we need a FAQ which does. For those of us who play PFS, this is not something that should be left to table variation.

[Richard M. Harris]

Those of you asking for a FAQ... make sure you click the FAQ flag on the original post please.

[Richard M. Harris]

So I brought the point about the alternate definition for "in hand" to one of my local GMs, who I often debate with.

The problem with allowing that ruling for in hand will create some holes in alot of other sources. There are quite a few occurrences of "in hand" in the CRB. That mean to have it HELD in a hand, but it says "in hand."

I agree, for this feat, that the developers probably intended for this to mean if the items are accessible, ie. in a backpack and chose to use a slightly archaic term for flavor. I believe at hand, or on your person would have been a better wording, but at least this allows the feat to function as intended.

The problem really will come up for PFS and table variation as I have already seen it. Fortunately in this area there is only one Alchemist that has even considered this feat (really just 1 Alchemist in the area) and its mine.

[thejeff]

Richard M. Harris wrote:

So I brought the point about the alternate definition for "in hand" to one of my local GMs, who I often debate with.

The problem with allowing that ruling for in hand will create some holes in alot of other sources. There are quite a few occurrences of "in hand" in the CRB. That mean to have it HELD in a hand, but it says "in hand."

I agree, for this feat, that the developers probably intended for this to mean if the items are accessible, ie. in a backpack and chose to use a slightly archaic term for flavor. I believe at hand, or on your person would have been a better wording, but at least this allows the feat to function as intended.

The problem really will come up for PFS and table variation as I have already seen it. Fortunately in this area there is only one Alchemist that has even considered this feat (really just 1 Alchemist in the area) and its mine.

Since you can't actually by PF rules have all of those things "in hand", by that strict a reading of RAW, the feat is useless - at least for the standard action version.