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Say a creature is Shaken from Intimidate or some other unstackable fear effect and is then subject to a Cause Fear (Frightened).
Both Shaken and Frightened mention a -2 penalty to pretty much everything, since penalties always stack would those indeed stack to a -4 or was Frighten's description intended to imply that it already includes Shaken and therefore wouldn't stack with itself?
This is not yet another Fear Escalation thread. I don't care about making them Panicked. The question is entirely about stacking the stated penalties.
Is it -2 or -4 total?
Note: The Shaken condition from Intimidate (Demoralize) is stackable (escalates) with other fear effects, just not with another Shaken due to Intimidate (Demoralize).
Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the
duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.
However, assuming that you have some other source of a fear effect that cannot stack (escalate) then the higher level effect should trump the lower level effect.
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However, assuming that you have some other source of a fear effect that cannot stack (escalate) then the higher level effect should trump the lower level effect.
Hmmm I'm a little unsatisfied with that answer Gauss, do you have a source that would indicate one would trump another when they don't escalate? As far as I can see, Shaken and Frightened are two different conditions and there is no reason I can see why one would trump the other anymore than Nauseated trumping Sickened. Even the Fear Escalation rules never make any mention of the lower fear effect being "replaced" by the higher one, a Shaken creature who is Shaken again into being Frightened would still have both Frightened and Shaken on them.
Yes, the rules state that you replace the lower condition by using the word "instead".
Becoming Even More Fearful: Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.
It would probably help if you thought of the fear conditions as one condition with 3 grades.
However, comparing it to Nauseated and Sickened is not relevant as that is not an escalating condition. While many people associate the two they are not related in the rules.
Regarding a non-escalating fear condition, do you have an example of one? (Demoralize doesn't count, it escalates..just not with itself.)
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It's probably nitpicking but in the fear stacking snipet you quoted it does not say instead when a character that is shaken is shaken again. Just that they become Frightened. It does say that for the the other two escalations but the way it's worded indicates that the first condition still exists but the second condition is the one that is replaced instead.
I understand that it is widely accepted that fear conditions are simply 3 stages of the same condition, but as it never actually says that that is the case, and instead lists them as three separate conditions that merely reference each other, I have a feeling this consensus is incorrect.
Ex: The Thug archetype's Frightening ability I don't believe escalates with Enforcer feat since they are both Demoralize, just different variations of it. Hit the guy once and put Frighten on him, hit him again and put Shaken on him, the enemy now has Frighten and Shaken on him at the same time. And I argue that in this situation the enemy would actually have a total of -4 penalty to his rolls. Though I admit I am unsure (hence the thread lol)
The Thug's Frightening ability and the Enforcer feat are both functions of Demoralize, thus they do not stack with themselves or other functions of Demoralize but they do stack with any other non-Demoralize fear effect.
In a case where the Thugs Frightening Ability and the Enforcer feat are both active this is overlapping, not stacking. Take the best.
There is a dev comment that says the Shaken from demoralize does not stack with any other fear condition, from any source. Not sure if it's ever been made official, though.
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I appreciate the input Rufus but as I mentioned in the OP I am not interested in whether or not Demoralize escalates effects. I am interested in whether or not Shaken and Frighten can exist together on a single creature and whether their penalties stack or replace each other. I believe that by RAW they can exist together and their penalties will stack. Gauss is of the opinion that they replace one another but I remain unconvinced still since the book never actually says that that is what happens.
Frightened: Characters who are frightened are shaken, and in addition they flee from the source of their fear as quickly as they can. They can choose the paths of their flight. Other than that stipulation, once they are out of sight (or hearing) of the source of their fear, they can act as they want. If the duration of their fear continues, however, characters can be forced to flee if the source of their fear presents itself again. Characters unable to flee can fight (though they are still shaken).
The Frightened condition includes the Shaken condition. The penalties associated with Frightened are from being Shaken. Thus, being Shaken from demoralize, or Frightful Charger, or the like does nothing if the target is already Frightened (besides extending the Shaken condition if they lose the Frightened condition.)
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Frightened: Characters who are frightened are shaken, and in addition they flee from the source of their fear as quickly as they can. They can choose the paths of their flight. Other than that stipulation, once they are out of sight (or hearing) of the source of their fear, they can act as they want. If the duration of their fear continues, however, characters can be forced to flee if the source of their fear presents itself again. Characters unable to flee can fight (though they are still shaken).The Frightened condition includes the Shaken condition. The penalties associated with Frightened are from being Shaken. Thus, being Shaken from demoralize, or Frightful Charger, or the like does nothing if the target is already Frightened (besides extending the Shaken condition if they lose the Frightened condition.)
Ah we have a winner. Thanks much Rufus!
That's what I get for using d20pfsrd all the time instead of, you know, the book...
Thanks RumpinRufus, that explains where they get the -2 penalties on CRB p567. Again, a case of different sections of the book saying different things. (YAY lack of simplicity!)
However, regarding Joshua J. Frost's comment, the comment that comment was in response to is over 5 years old. He indicated that there would be an upcoming errata but there have been multiple CRB erratas without a 'cannot stack with any other fear effect' sentence.
My guess is that the errata added the line that stated that Demoralize cannot stack with itself. If there was going to be a more general 'cannot stack with any other fear effect' errata it should have happened by now.
So, at this time yes, the Shaken effect from Demoralize can stack with other fear effects but not with itself.