APL, CR, etc.

[Fabian Benavente]

Hey all, I'm trying to convert some old modules for an upcoming game and wanted to make sure I was doing this right so please check my math, assumptions, etc.

If I have a group of five 7th level PCs, the APL is 7

If I want to make a 'challenging' encounter, the CR would 8 or a budget of 4,800 XPs.

This encounter will be 'desert raiders' made up of 1 chief, 1 subchief, and others raiders.

Chief is 6th level fighter (1,600 XPs);
Subchief is 5th level wizard (1,200 XPs);
leaving me with 2,000 XPs for the raiders (3rd level or 600 XPs) so I can only include 4 (rounding up).

So I'm led to believe that one 6th level fighter, one 5th level wizard, and four 3rd level fighters is 'challenging' to five 7th level PCs.

The encounter doesn't 'feel challenging'. Is this correct?

[MurphysParadox]

APL is a fast and loose suggestion of rough estimation. Challenging, likewise, means the PCs will have to burn some resources (spells, potions, hitpoints) to handle it, not that anyone is in danger of being killed.

That said, keep packs of 2-4 raiders 'in the wings'. If the PCs just destroy what you have without trouble, add some extra guards (maybe with a subchief) at the end of the round. You can also up the bad guy's health.

I also heavily suggest there be terrain to favor the bad guys (a rule good for every battle). Elevated archer platforms, pit traps, auto-locking doors, special magic items the boss can activate that gives everyone he likes a pile of buffs at once, etc.

It also happens that around level 7 the game starts to favor the PCs. Their power curve, compared to the monster difficulty curve, is a bit on the PC's side. So you may find the need to bump the challenge up to CR 9, maybe toss in another subchief (always fun to add casters to the mix; makes players nervous).

[Eltacolibre]

Challenging is the nice way to say: "This shouldn't be a problem."

If you want the fight to be hard, go for CR 8 or CR 9. If it is the only fight of the day for some reason or there aren't many fights, you could even go for CR 10. If they are optimizer/veteran definitely go for CR 10.

[Matthew Downie]

For a group of four seventh level characters, CR 7 is routine. CR 8 is 'challenging' but not really. CR 9 is potentially dangerous. CR 10 is definitely dangerous. CR 11 is '50% chance of TPK' dangerous.

If there are five PCs, the encounters can be slightly tougher than that - increase the XPV by 25% or so for the same level of challenge. (For example, your 4800XP encounter CR 8 encounter could be raised to 6000XP or so, adding a couple more raiders, a second 5th level subchief, or something like that.)

If the players really know what they're doing and are optimized for combat, then they can handle much tougher challenges than the standard game would expect.

Remember, though, that even a fairly mediocre set of enemies can be deadly if their tactics are good. Imagine an ambush where the wizard locks down most of the party with an area effect spell, and then all the other attackers fire arrows simultaneously into the weakest PC until he's dead, then ride away into the distance before they can be counter-attacked...

[Eltacolibre]

What Matthew says is very true.

I have seen it happen...one fight all my players fought the first two enemies of the dungeon, which I didn't even consider them a challenge and just an introduction to the dungeon. 2 Shining Children CR = APL
Basic tactic, they used mirage arcana to make a false ceiling, so as soon as the players got into the middle of the room, the first shining child dropped in the middle of the them and used his sunburst/light burst ability forget the name...everybody in the party failed their fort save(they all rolled low), so end up with all my players permanently blind and running away from the dungeon with their emergency teleport spell.

[Rikkan]

Fabian Benavente wrote:

Hey all, I'm trying to convert some old modules for an upcoming game and wanted to make sure I was doing this right so please check my math, assumptions, etc.

If I have a group of five 7th level PCs, the APL is 7

If I want to make a 'challenging' encounter, the CR would 8 or a budget of 4,800 XPs.
...
The encounter doesn't 'feel challenging'. Is this correct?

I don't know what you'd consider challenging, but imho a CR 8 encounter is not a challenge (unless their characters are very suboptimal).

Keep in mind that a PC with PC wealth has a CR equal to it's character level.
Assuming your NPCs have npc wealth (npc wealth => reduce CR by 1)
Your fight would be:
5 x CR 7
Vs CR 5 + CR 4 + 4x CR 2

[Fabian Benavente]

Thanks for the prompt responses!

So 'challenging' is not the same for everyone. Go figure. :)

I suspect my 'challenging' is more like Paizo's 'hard'.

I also like the idea of adding 25% more XPs to my XP budget because I have 5 PCs instead of 4.

So now my encounter becomes:

If I have a group of five 7th level PCs, the APL is 7

If I want to make a 'HARD' encounter, the CR would 9 or a budget of 6,400 XPs but by adding 25% (because of the 5 PCs) then I get 8,000 XP.

This encounter will be 'desert raiders' made up of 1 chief, 2 subchiefs, and others raiders.

Chief is 6th level fighter (1,600 XPs);
2 Subchief are 5th level wizards (1,200 XPs);
leaving me with 4,000 XPs for the raiders (3rd level or 600 XPs) so I can include 7 (rounding up).

So now one 6th level fighter, two 5th level wizards, and seven 3rd level fighters is 'hard' to five 7th level PCs.

Yeah, that feels about right.

Heck, I may even have to go back to 'challenging'. :)

Thanks!