I have wanted a class that focuses on just bombs without being so magical that they can transform, hulk out, and do a lot of other things. Hopefully some of you have wanted this too. Therefore, I present the War Chemist archetype.
War Chemist
Nobody understands explosives and poisons like these alchemists. They forsake the general research that most alchemists pursue in order to create more deadly implements of war.
Weapons Manufacturer (Su)
At 1st level, the alchemist becomes adept the creation of deadly weapons. When using Craft (alchemy) to create a splash weapon or poison, an alchemist gains a competence bonus equal to his class level on the Craft (alchemy) check.
Ready for War (Su)
At 1st level, the alchemist devotes himself wholly to war. Where most alchemists carry extracts to battle, war chemists bring only bombs and poison. The War Chemist can use an additional number of bombs each day equal to his alchemist level + 2. His bombs have a range increment of 30 feet instead of a range of 20 feet.
Additionally, the alchemist may draw poisons as a move action. At 6th level he may do this as a swift action, and at 11th level this becomes a free action. The poisons must be loaded on a bandolier, belt, or other location that can be quickly accessed in order to be affected by this class feature.
This ability replaces Alchemy.
Extra Packing (Su)
At 1st level, the alchemist learns to make his bombs more devastating than the average alchemist. Whenever the alchemist throws a bomb, he may increase its splash radius by 5 feet. If the alchemist has the explosive bomb discovery and throws an explosive bomb, its splash radius becomes 15 feet when he uses this ability.
Additionally, the damage of his bombs increases by 1. At 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1. The damage bonus gained from extra packing is doubled against creatures who take splash damage from the alchemist’s bombs.
This ability replaces mutagen.
Deathly Practice (Su)
At 2nd level the alchemist gains the Delayed Bomb discovery as a bonus discovery, ignoring all prerequisites. The alchemist may only select discoveries that modify their bombs or affect poisons.
This modifies the Discovery class feature.
You'd be better off bolting bombs on some other (probably full BAB) class instead, if you remove Alchemy from the Alchemist.
I don't know about that. This class already has a lot of other features that a bomb and poison maker would like. Also, it gained a larger number of bombs because I traded away a class feature for them.
Also, there is a precedent for losing Alchemy. The Investigator loses the Alchemy feature for the Sleuth to gain grit.
The quick drawing of poison was intended because Alchemists already get quick application of it, but that does not affect the drawing of the poison before it is applied.
Though I like the idea of combining poisons with bombs. I will work on that. Do you think I should include some kind of price break for poison creation in Ready for War or Deathly Practice? What if I included a scaling poison inside Ready for War that could be used 3+int modifier times per day? Something like the nanite bloodline's nanite strike.
I don't know if I want to replace Brew Potion, because if I did, the archetype would not be compatible with Grenadier.
Also, if I gave any of those classes bombs, then another class feature to get additional bombs equal to their level+2 like this archetype, wouldn't that be against the purpose of archetypes? I don't like the idea of the archetype of another class taking a main class feature and doubling their uses of it. It makes more sense for there to be an archetype of a class that improves one aspect in favor of the other.
Let me repeat
"I don't like the idea of the archetype of another class taking a main class feature and doubling their uses of it. It makes more sense for there to be an archetype of a class that improves one aspect in favor of the other."
Considering that with that idea, signature deed would not just double it, but allow infinite bombs?
The techslinger is still using guns. The tech-guns are still guns. It is an archetype of gunslinger designed to be worse at using one kind of gun to be better at using another type of gun.
Examples of acceptable and unacceptable archetype class feature use:
Examplar is a Brawler archetype that can use inspire courage for half the rounds of a bard. This is cool and acceptable. What if it also gave up martial flexibility and knockout to gain an aditional 2 rounds of inspire courage per level, giving it 50% more rounds of inspire courage than a bard at what many would consider to be a bargain. Is this acceptable?
The Feral Hunter is a hunter archetype that gains wildshape. What if its mechanically weak replacement for the teamwork feats gained at 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level were instead additional uses of wild-shape? Would that be acceptable?
I don't think that those cases would be acceptable. I do not think that a gunslinger archetype that can use infinite alchemist bombs is acceptable.
Anyway, what would your opinion be on all of these being added into the archetype:
-combining poisons with inhaled bombs (your idea)
-price break for poison creation of inhaled variety
-a scaling poison that could be used 3+int modifier times per day? Something like the nanite bloodline's nanite strike.
You could also look at the Iron Bombardier for ideas on a fairly bomb-heavy Alchemist.
Thank you Oceanshieldwolf for that link. Not only was that a fun read, but the site is great! Anyway, I have changed up the archetype based on that link and Loneknave's feedback. Tell me what you guys think?
War Chemist
Nobody understands explosives and poisons like these alchemists. They forsake the general research that most alchemists pursue in order to create more deadly implements of war.
Weapons Manufacturer (Su)
At 1st level, the alchemist becomes adept the creation of deadly weapons. When using Craft (alchemy) to create a splash weapon or poison, an alchemist gains a competence bonus equal to his class level on the Craft (alchemy) check. At 3rd level, the production cost of poisons is reduced by 25%.
Where most alchemists carry extracts to battle, war chemists bring only bombs and poison. The War Chemist can use an additional number of bombs each day equal to his alchemist level + 2. His bombs have a range increment of 30 feet instead of a range of 20 feet.
This ability replaces Brew Potion
Innovations
At 1st level, the alchemist gains innovations, representing insights into combat, and how it is waged. The war chemist gains a number of insight points per day equal to 1/2 his alchemist level + his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). The following is the list of base war chemist innovations. A war chemist can only perform innovations of his level or lower. Unless otherwise noted, an innovation can be performed multiple successive times, as long as the appropriate amount of insight points are spent to perform the innovation.
Additional Bombs (Su): At 1st level, the war chemist understands that sometimes the simplest solution is more bombs. He may spend 1 insight point as a free action to gain 1 usage of his bomb class feature.
Secret Formula (Su): At 1st level, the war chemist concocts his own secret recipe for poison that utilizes the same method of creation and storage as his bombs. This war chemist chooses one of the four dosage types for this poison to be ( contact, ingested, inhaled, or injury), and may select another dosage type at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter. The poison acts as detailed below:
(Poison— save Fort DC 10 + 1/2 your alchemist level + your Int modifier; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 1 Str damage; cure 1 save).
At 5th level the poison also deals 1 point of Constitution damage. At 7th level, the damage increases to 1d2 points of Constitution damage and 1d2 points of Strength damage. At 11th level, the cure becomes two successful saves.
To create a secret formula, you expend 1 insight point and 1 bomb. This secret formula is highly unstable, causing it to become inert if not used within 1 hour. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
Draw Poison (Ex): At 3rd level, as long as the war chemist has at least insight point he may draw poisons as a move action. At 6th level he may do this as a swift action, and at 11th level this becomes a free action. The poisons must be loaded on a bandolier, belt, or other location that can be quickly accessed in order to be affected by this class feature.
Combination (Ex): At 3rd level, the war chemist learns to combine inhaled poisons with his bombs. By spending 1 insight point, he may apply an inhaled poison to a bomb or other splash weapon, allowing it to affect all of the creatures in the blast radius. Creatures not directly hit by the bomb gain a +4 bonus to this save. Combination is incompatible with bombs that deal fire damage, due to the heat of the explosion neutralizing the poison.
Adaptive Bomb (Su): At 7th level, the war chemist learns to adapt better to the situation. He may spend 2 insight points to benefit from a discovery that he does not know for 1 minute per alchemist level. This discovery must be one that affects his bomb class feature.
Directed Blast (Su): At 10th level, a war chemist’s bomb can detonate so that it splashes in a 20-foot cone rather than affecting a radius. The cone starts at the war chemist and extends away from him in the direction he chooses. The war chemist designates one creature in the squares affected by the cone to be the target of the bomb and makes his attack roll against that creature; all other squares in the cone take splash damage. If the war chemist has the explosive bomb discovery and discharges an explosive directed blast, the cone of splash damage is 30 feet long instead of 20 feet.
Staggering Blast (Ex): At 14th level, whenever a war chemist scores a successful critical hit with a bomb he can spend 1 insight point to cause the creature directly struck by that bomb to become staggered for 1d4+1 rounds. A successful Fortitude save (DC equals the bomb’s Reflex save DC to avoid splash damage) reduces the duration to 1 round. The effects of this innovation stack with the frost bomb discovery’s staggering effect, but not with the effects of the Staggering Critical feat. Additional hits from a staggering blast add to the effect’s overall duration.
This ability replaces Alchemy.
Extra Packing (Su)
At 1st level, the alchemist learns to make his bombs more devastating than the average alchemist. Whenever the alchemist throws a bomb, he may increase its splash radius by 5 feet. If the alchemist has the explosive bomb discovery and throws an explosive bomb, its splash radius becomes 15 feet when he uses this ability.
Additionally, the damage of his bombs increases by 1. At 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1. The damage bonus gained from extra packing is doubled against creatures who take splash damage from the alchemist’s bombs.
This ability replaces mutagen.
Deathly Practice (Su)
At 2nd level the alchemist gains the Delayed Bomb discovery as a bonus discovery, ignoring all prerequisites. The alchemist may only select discoveries that modify their bombs or modify poison.
This modifies the Discovery class feature.
You could probably slap martial weapob prof them and allow them to take combat feats in place of discoveries that use the warpriests prerequisite bypass.
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Let me repeat
"I don't like the idea of the archetype of another class taking a main class feature and doubling their uses of it. It makes more sense for there to be an archetype of a class that improves one aspect in favor of the other."
I wouldn't call bombs the alchemist's main class feature. It's a good one, but not the main one, nor even the secondary one. That's alchemy+mutagen, which is why nothing trades those out (except for an equivalent, in the case of mutagen). Bombs is the third-rung feature of the class, which also means it's not *that* big of a deal if an archetype of something else can do it slightly better.
I would agree with LoneKnave that this is better off bolted onto a full BAB class, since it's just Bombs + a few discoveries. That's roughly like how Alchemist can give up bombs for sneak attack. I would probably base it on Fighter, Slayer, or Gunslinger.
It makes no sense to remove Alchemy + Mutagens from alchemist and still call it alchemist. At absolute minimum they need Alchemy or it just doesn't fit at all to call them an alchemist. Even that notwithstanding, alchemy is a SUPER powerful class feature, so anything you would swap it out with would have to have a large amount of power and versatility, which I can't see being channeled in a balanced manner towards a single shtick.
Please do not point out Investigator archetypes for calling alchemy-swaps "fair". For one, that's Investigator, for whom alchemy is a tertiary feature (thematically speaking). For two, no-one takes those archetypes because they are absolutely terrible.
I looked at this because I have worked on two "alchemist" home brews. The first allows the alchemist to "specialize" in one area (bombs, mutagen, poison, potions, etc) and become worse at other things. The other was a full-BAB alchemist with 4-level casting/extracts.
However, losing the ability to make extracts is big turn off. Also, I don't consider the ability to hurl twice as many bombs a great thing. I would rather have more interesting things to do with the bombs.
stuff
Take a lesson from Ciaran Barnes and actually talk about the archetype. You come off as rude for most of your post. I am asking for feedback on how to make this archetype better and more playable. Being told that its a bad idea and that I shouldn't do it is both not constructive, and not wanted.
I looked at this because I have worked on two "alchemist" home brews. The first allows the alchemist to "specialize" in one area (bombs, mutagen, poison, potions, etc) and become worse at other things. The other was a full-BAB alchemist with 4-level casting/extracts.
However, losing the ability to make extracts is big turn off. Also, I don't consider the ability to hurl twice as many bombs a great thing. I would rather have more interesting things to do with the bombs.
Those archetypes you homebrewed sound pretty fun. Are they here on the forum?
I think that the version 2 I made of the archetype does a lot more interesting things with the bombs. It also does some stuff with poisons, including getting a price break on them, being able to apply them to bombs, and getting some free scaling poison every day.
Neither one is posted. The first one is just way too all over the place, so I need to go over it again with a more objective eye and reign it in. The second one is just a concept, not fleshed out.
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Weapons Manufacturer should be simplified to a bonus to craft any alchemmical item. Most of them are weapons anyway, and your restriction isn't really reigning in any power level. If you insist on increasing the number of bombs per day, then just list the total number of bombs per day instead of listing the number of bombs that are added to the normal number of bombs. Reducing a cost of 25% is not needed because the cost is already cut in half. Finally, gaining all of these abilities at the loss of Brew Potion does not balance out. Its a limited use feat, and not much of a loss.
I'm looking at Innovations, and thinking it might work better if:
-It is fleshed out more. Look at how many deeds a gunslinger gets.
-Bombs and Innovations are drawn from the same pool. Use the same number of points as a barbarian's rage or bard's performance. Switching over to this system would need a bunch of work. But... now that I've thunk'd it, I will be using it in one of my alchemists!
Neither one is posted. The first one is just way too all over the place, so I need to go over it again with a more objective eye and reign it in. The second one is just a concept, not fleshed out.
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Weapons Manufacturer should be simplified to a bonus to craft any alchemmical item. Most of them are weapons anyway, and your restriction isn't really reigning in any power level. If you insist on increasing the number of bombs per day, then just list the total number of bombs per day instead of listing the number of bombs that are added to the normal number of bombs. Reducing a cost of 25% is not needed because the cost is already cut in half. Finally, gaining all of these abilities at the loss of Brew Potion does not balance out. Its a limited use feat, and not much of a loss.
I'm looking at Innovations, and thinking it might work better if:
-It is fleshed out more. Look at how many deeds a gunslinger gets.
-Bombs and Innovations are drawn from the same pool. Use the same number of points as a barbarian's rage or bard's performance. Switching over to this system would need a bunch of work. But... now that I've thunk'd it, I will be using it in one of my alchemists!
The 25% is because players often consider poisons to be too expensive by a large margin. I figured that since the usual 50% for crafting is not enough of a discount, it needs to be a 75% discount.
Though now I have an idea. How about I but all of the bomb improvements into the bomb class feature instead of having them replace mutagen, and then allow the weapons manufacturer to share his mutagen. Specifically, by turning his mutagen into gas bombs and tossing it at his friends (gets everyone within a 5 foot splash radius).
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My intent was not to be rude, but to provide constructive criticism of your approach as I believe you will end up with either (A) an undesirable archetype or (B) an archetype with a single overpowering shtick and nothing else.
As it stands, I would never take your archetype, even if I wanted to be focused on bombs, as the sacrifice it makes in other features is far too great. Also, it relies heavily on poison, which is (even if free) a situationally useful ability as it requires a few rounds to kick in even if they fail the saves, by which time a typical fight is already over. That said, having larger radii and directed blasts is rather cool, so if the sacrifice is toned back a bit I would probably consider it. Perhaps a "Shaped Charge" ability that allows easier destruction of fortifications? (A very situational ability, but it's the first thought I had with directed blast.)
If you absolutely must build the archetype on Alchemist, then I would suggest reducing the Alchemy feature to a 3/4 progression instead of eliminating it entirely (i.e. they count 3/4 of their levels, rounded down, for the purposes of their alchemy, maxing them at 5th level extracts and delaying onset of the ability to 2nd level). Alternatively, reduce their extracts per day by 1 per level (similar to crossblood sorcerer). Swapping Mutagen is still rough, but as long as they can still take it via discovery then that is fine.
Again, I am attempting constructive criticism here. If you still feel I am being rude then I will simply abstain from further commentary.
Sorry StabbittyDoom, I hope I didn't sound too aggressive. You're all right. I understand what you mean, but part of my goal with this archetype was to keep extracts out. To me, they don't fit much with the theme I am going for. Part of it is also a desire to see if I can make a good archetype without extracts.
I do like your idea of a shaped charge though. How do you think it should work? Modifying a delayed bomb to deal double damage, but setting its blast radius to zero is my first thought.
Also, what do you think of my above idea of turning mutagen into an aerosol and allowing the rest of the party to benefit? Reduced duration, but it can get your whole front line. I think combat stimulants fit into my war chemist theme.
Something like this:
Aerosol Mutagen (Su)
The war chemist may throw his mutagen as a splash weapon instead of ingesting it normally. This splash weapon has a blast radius of 5 feet and a range of 20 feet and uses the Throw Splash Weapon special attack. Non-alchemists are affected normally by this mutagen, but only gain half of the benefits and penalties to ability scores. When the war chemist’s mutagen is used in this manner, its duration is reduced to 1 minute per level. To resist the effects of this mutagen a creature must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the alchemist's level + the alchemist's Intelligence modifier).
This modifies the mutagen class feature.
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I like that Aerosol Mutagen idea, which gives me an idea: What if the War Chymist is the (ironically) selfless variant of Alchemist?
To expand on that: Alchemist typically has a load of abilities that only work on themselves. Perhaps the War Chymist gets a smaller set, but they work on everyone (albeit with an unusual delivery method).
A War Chymist studied alchemy as extensively as his brothers, but never really took to it as well. He understands the theory quite well, but in practice his capability is limited and, to his brethren, crude. He does not carry a forumlae book, but has memorized a few useful bits that he understands as much by instinct as reason.
A War Chymist can use only a limited number of alchemical formulae. He learns 2 at first level, then another at 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter. The forumlae he learns must be one an Alchemist of equal level could normally learn, and cannot be one with range personal or that has an expensive material component. They can spend a discovery to gain an additional formulae known, which the same restrictions.
The War Chymist does not prepare extracts. Instead, he can use any forumlae he knows like a bomb. Those with a single target do not have a splash radius. Those that have multiple targets have a splash radius of 10ft. + 5ft/4 levels, affecting the closest eligible targets first. Both initial and splash targets take full effect, but any saving throws have their DC reduced by -4 for those not directly hit. These bombs need not be prepared ahead of time. Bomb discoveries that modify targeting
Using this ability is a standard action and can be used a number of times per day equal to half the War Chymist's level + his intelligence modifier.
As for the shaped charge, I'd imagine it'd act like a strength check, but hitting a DC of 20 + level + intelligence modifier. However, it would probably take a bit to set up if it's larger than a lock. Perhaps a minute for a 5ft square, a full action for a small object like a lock?
Now that I think about it this is starting to look like a hybrid class of Gunslinger + Alchemist.