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I'm trying to figure out the order these would be applied in. As an example, assume you are a Gnome, use Magical Lineage on Ghost Sound, with Threatening Illusion (+1 Spell Level, Save is based on spell level), and Heighten Spell. Without Magical Lineage, Threatening Illusion Ghost Sound would use a 2nd level spell slot, and would count as a second level spell, with associated DC. I'm not what it would be with Magical Lineage - would it be Threatening (+1), ML (-1), and then the Heighten does nothing? Or would it be Threatening (+1) then Heighten (SL 2), then ML (-1), resulting in a SL 2 spell in a SL 1 slot?
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Threatening Illusion would make it a 0th level spell in a 1st level slot. Magical Lineage would make it a 0th level spell in a 0th level slot.
Heighten works differently in that it makes the base spell function at a different level. So, you choose what spell level you want it to be and it becomes that level. You can't reduce the cost of Heighten at all, because it doesn't work the way other metamagic does.
If you wanted a 2nd level Ghost Sound, you'd heighten it to 2nd level and it would take a 2nd level slot. Magical Lineage would do nothing. If you then used Threatening Illusion, it would become a 2nd level spell in a 3rd level slot, but Magical Lineage would drop it back down to a 2nd level slot.
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Ghost Sound was actually a poor example, I was flipping through Figments with level based effects and missed that it was a cantrip >.<
To put things hopefully a bit more clearly - I'm trying to find a way to early entry Mystic Theurge for a particular character concept without having to use an SLA race, since the RP aspect of the character would work better as a Kitsune. Just using Heighten has been mentioned in the past as a possible method of doing it, but I agree with the interpretation that it does not work directly with Magical Lineage as a result of ML not being a direct modification to the SL. Hence, I'm trying to find out if combining it with a third ability, some variety of +1 Metamagic, would actually work (if I were to do it for real, I'd probably use ML with Magic Missile and use the metamagic that gives force spells a trip attempt).
Are there any official clarifications from Paizo about how Heighten interacts with things? I've not seen one in my searching.
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Heighten doesn't really "interact" with other metamagic...there's really no way to use Heighten to get 2nd level spellcasting without having second level spell slots.
Edit: It's too bad that taking Magical Tail twice only gets you 1st level SLAs. If you get a 3rd taking that would solve your problem. If your GM allows retraining you could get to 5th level in a divine class, take Magical Tail x3 giving a 2nd level arcane SLA, then retrain levels as needed into MT.
You can't use Heighten to get early entry. Heighten makes the spell function as a spell of the actual slot used. The only early entry for Mystic Theurge is through SLAs.
Aren't there variants of each of oracle and wizard that, as part of the class, give you access to spell-like abilities of second level or higher?
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Threatening Illusion would make it a 0th level spell in a 1st level slot. Magical Lineage would make it a 0th level spell in a 0th level slot.
Heighten works differently in that it makes the base spell function at a different level. So, you choose what spell level you want it to be and it becomes that level. You can't reduce the cost of Heighten at all, because it doesn't work the way other metamagic does.
If you wanted a 2nd level Ghost Sound, you'd heighten it to 2nd level and it would take a 2nd level slot. Magical Lineage would do nothing. If you then used Threatening Illusion, it would become a 2nd level spell in a 3rd level slot, but Magical Lineage would drop it back down to a 2nd level slot.
I'm not sure I agree with you here. Why can't Magical Lineage work with Heighten Spell?
Heighten increases a spells effective level AND slot level while Magical Lineage decreases the spells slot level only. A 1st level spell Heightened to 2nd level, but then effected by Magical Lineage becomes a 2nd level spell that takes up a 1st level spell slot. Essentially the combo gives you one free DC bump.|
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Yeah, unfortunately there's no way to get the necessary Magical Tail ranks before level 5, and you pick feats after class, so you wouldn't qualify for MT before 6. This is meant to be an Enchanter type character - I can do straight Sorc Enchanter (the classic Kitsune Enchanter setup), but it would actually fit the character better to be able to do something like Sorc/Cleric/Theurge (the concept character believes himself to be destined for godhood, and is trying to draw in the power of both the arcane and the divine to prepare for a theoretical attempt at the Starstone that is purely RP because PFS never goes high enough for that kind of silliness to actually kick in).
Assuming I can't find a proper way to do it early, I could do something like Sorc 1/Cleric 5/MT while taking ranks in Magical Tail. A Crossblooded Sorc dip isn't necessarily a bad thing anyway for the boosts to Cleric casting (some combination of some 2 of Impossible/Undead/Serpent/Fey to boost enchanting and what you can apply it to) - you'd essentially end up as a 1-level-behind Cleric with some interesting arcane toys on the side. Cleric does have some interesting Enchantment type divine spells.
I'm not sure I agree with you here. Why can't Magical Lineage work with Heighten Spell?
Heighten increases a spells effective level AND slot level while Magical Lineage decreases the spells slot level only. A 1st level spell Heightened to 2nd level, but then effected by Magical Lineage becomes a 2nd level spell that takes up a 1st level spell slot. Essentially the combo gives you one free DC bump.
Heighten: "The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level."
Magical Lineage: "Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level."
So, I want to Heighten Magic Missile to a 3rd level spell. I have Magical Lineage. I applied a metamagic feat, so Magical Lineage treats Magic Missile as a 0th level spell for determining the spell's final adjusted level. So, I look at Heighten, and Magic Missile becomes "as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level," and the effective level is 3, so, it becomes a 3rd level spell.
As opposed to say, Toppling metamagic (which is a lousy idea--don't take it). Magical Lineage makes Magic Missile a 0th level spell and then Toppling adds one to the level, making it a 1st level spell again.
Yeah, unfortunately there's no way to get the necessary Magical Tail ranks before level 5, and you pick feats after class, so you wouldn't qualify for MT before 6.
Yeah, uh, don't take the magical tail feats because they are pretty terrible. I mean, ok, take them if you must have the flavor, but, you're better off just leaving it descriptive.
This is meant to be an Enchanter type character - I can do straight Sorc Enchanter (the classic Kitsune Enchanter setup), but it would actually fit the character better to be able to do something like Sorc/Cleric/Theurge (the concept character believes himself to be destined for godhood, and is trying to draw in the power of both the arcane and the divine to prepare for a theoretical attempt at the Starstone that is purely RP because PFS never goes high enough for that kind of silliness to actually kick in).
Why not just be a pure Sorcerer and assume the Cleric side comes in after 12th, since the payoff never happens anyway? You can UMD pages of spell knowledge for cleric spells if you really want, right?
Assuming I can't find a proper way to do it early, I could do something like Sorc 1/Cleric 5/MT while taking ranks in Magical Tail. A Crossblooded Sorc dip isn't necessarily a bad thing anyway for the boosts to Cleric casting (some combination of some 2 of Impossible/Undead/Serpent/Fey to boost enchanting and what you can apply it to) - you'd essentially end up as a 1-level-behind Cleric with some interesting arcane toys on the side. Cleric does have some interesting Enchantment type divine spells.
I just don't see the point. And you're better off with Oracle anyway with the Charisma you'll probably be sporting.
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Heighten: "The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level."
Magical Lineage: "Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level."
So, I want to Heighten Magic Missile to a 3rd level spell. I have Magical Lineage. I applied a metamagic feat, so Magical Lineage treats Magic Missile as a 0th level spell for determining the spell's final adjusted level. So, I look at Heighten, and Magic Missile becomes "as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level," and the effective level is 3, so, it becomes a 3rd level spell.
As opposed to say, Toppling metamagic (which is a lousy idea--don't take it). Magical Lineage makes Magic Missile a 0th level spell and then Toppling adds one to the level, making it a 1st level spell again.
You are applying the effects in the wrong order. Magical Lineage only works on a spell that has alreafy been effected by a Metamagic feat, so the feat must be applied first and then Magical lineage is applied second.
So to use your example Heightened Magic Missile is first increased to 3rd level by Heighten, and then decreased by 1 to 2nd level by Magical Lineage.
No, Magical Lineage retroactively lowers the base spell level. It makes the base spell level 0.
So, without it:
Toppling:
SL 1 + 1 = SL 2
Heighten
SL 1 changes directly into SL 2
With Magical Lineage:
Toppling:
SL 0 + 1 = SL 1
Heighten:
SL 0 changes directly into SL 2
Heighten never adds spell slot levels, it changes the spell to the desired level directly.
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I'm trying to find a way to early entry Mystic Theurge for a particular character concept without having to use an SLA race
Are there any official clarifications from Paizo about how Heighten interacts with things? I've not seen one in my searching.
The only legal way to do early entry is SLA.
If you try to do much of anything like this with Heighten Spell, you will experience table variance.
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The only legal way to do early entry is SLA.
If you try to do much of anything like this with Heighten Spell, you will experience table variance.
I unfortunately didn't start playing until after the Aasimar and Tiefling were removed as player races, which really limits things on the SLA front - I think the only valid method now without a boon is a Tengu with Long-Nose Form, which just doesn't fit the character I want to make. Guess I'll just go straight Sorcerer for this one.
Why not just be a pure Sorcerer and assume the Cleric side comes in after 12th, since the payoff never happens anyway? You can UMD pages of spell knowledge for cleric spells if you really want, right?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/false-casting :)
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Worth noting: Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter are worded very differently. Lineage says reduce the spell's original level by one, then apply metamagic. Spellhunter simply says that when applying metamagic, the spell "uses up a spell slot one level lower than it normally would." To me at least, that reads as the reverse of Lineage.
Magical Lineage doesn't lower the spell, but the final spell level used after applying the metamagic. So it is basically the same.
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it literally does say "if you apply metamagic to Shocking Grasp, treat Shocking Grasp as a 0th level spell, then apply metamagic".
You and I are reading that rule totally different, because it doesn't say anything remotely close to that to me. It says "the 1st level spell is 2nd when adding a +1 LA to it, so treat it as 1 level lower so 1".
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it literally does say "if you apply metamagic to Shocking Grasp, treat Shocking Grasp as a 0th level spell, then apply metamagic".You and I are reading that rule totally different, because it doesn't say anything remotely close to that to me. It says "the 1st level spell is 2nd when adding a +1 LA to it, so treat it as 1 level lower so 1".
The trait literally says "treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level."
So, you don't adjust the final 2nd level version down, you adjust the spell's actual level, then add the metamagic.
The normal order of operations here for, say, an Empowered Dazing Fireball would be:
3 (spell's actual level) + 2 (Empower) + 3 (Dazing) = 8 (final adjusted level)
You're suggesting that the way Magical Lineage works is:
3 (spell's actual level) + 2 (Empower) + 3 (Dazing) - 1 (Magical Lineage) = 7 (final adjusted level)
However, the literal way it is worded makes it work like this:
2 (spell's actual level adjusted for magical lineage) + 2 (Empower) + 3 (Dazing) = 7 (final adjusted level)
When you are Heightening a spell, though, you just change the spell's level directly. So, Heightening a Fireball to 8th level does not add 5 levels to the spell, it just directly changes it to 8th level, no addition of any kind. Magical lineage would make Fireball an effective 2nd level spell, but it doesn't matter because Heighten directly changes it to an 8th level spell.
As has already been pointed out, though, Wayang Spellhunter's wording is different and does allow you to mess with Heighten: "When you use the chosen spell with a metamagic feat, it uses up a spell slot one level lower than it normally would."
So, for the Empowered Dazing Fireball, it would look like this:
3 (spell's actual level) + 2 (Empower) + 3 (Dazing) - 1 (Wayang Spellhunter) = 7 (final adjusted level)
And when you Heighten that Fireball to 8th, it directly changes from a 3rd level spell to an 8th level spell, then Wayang Spellhunter drops it down to a 7th level slot.
It's goofy that the traits work differently, but they do as written (even though I don't think they are intended to).
However, even with Wayang Spellhunter instead, you can't cheat the requirements with Heighten. Even if you only need a 1st level slot, Heighten still makes your Magic Missile a 2nd level spell and Sorcerers can't cast 2nd level spells until 4th level, regardless of the slot used.
Durrr... wait a minute.
If that's true, wouldn't the save DC for an Empowered Fireball modified by Magical Lineage be 1 less than the save DC for an Empowered Fireball modified by Wayang Spellhunter?
Edit: sorry, had them switched.
No, you only treat the actual level as 1 lower for the purposes of calculating the spell's final adjusted level, not for the purposes of save DCs or anything else.
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The trait literally says "treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level."
It does.
You read "its" referring the to the unmodified level of the base spell.
I read "its" referring to the modified spell level.
Both are RAW, Yours reduces the base spell to a level below where it started and mine leaves it alone and reduces the final outcome.
The trait literally says "treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level."It does.
You read "its" referring the to the unmodified level of the base spell.
I read "its" referring to the modified spell level.
Both are RAW, Yours reduces the base spell to a level below where it started and mine leaves it alone and reduces the final outcome.
I read "its" as "the spell's."
So:
"Treat [the spell's] actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level."
"Actual level" has a pretty clear meaning when contrasted with the "final adjusted level."
I'm trying to figure out the order these would be applied in. As an example, assume you are a Gnome, use Magical Lineage on Ghost Sound, with Threatening Illusion (+1 Spell Level, Save is based on spell level), and Heighten Spell. Without Magical Lineage, Threatening Illusion Ghost Sound would use a 2nd level spell slot, and would count as a second level spell, with associated DC. I'm not what it would be with Magical Lineage - would it be Threatening (+1), ML (-1), and then the Heighten does nothing? Or would it be Threatening (+1) then Heighten (SL 2), then ML (-1), resulting in a SL 2 spell in a SL 1 slot?
Aside from the rest of the conversation, it should be noted that with the exception of heighten spell, metamagic additions to not increase the DC of a spell. The DC remains at the spells original level.
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Aside from the rest of the conversation, it should be noted that with the exception of heighten spell, metamagic additions to not increase the DC of a spell. The DC remains at the spells original level.
Right, but Heighten Spell is +0, so can't you just apply whatever other metamagic you want, then Heighten on top of it to give it a DC of the slot it ended up in after the boosts from the other metamagic? For example, a Heightened Persistent Hold Person would be a 5th level slot with a 5th level DC.
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Aside from the rest of the conversation, it should be noted that with the exception of heighten spell, metamagic additions to not increase the DC of a spell. The DC remains at the spells original level.Right, but Heighten Spell is +0, so can't you just apply whatever other metamagic you want, then Heighten on top of it to give it a DC of the slot it ended up in after the boosts from the other metamagic? For example, a Heightened Persistent Hold Person would be a 5th level slot with a 5th level DC.
That is emphatically not how Heighten Spell works. It's not +0, it's more like +X, where you choose X and the effective spell level, save DC and so forth increases by X.
Giant FAQ quote incoming:
Heighten Spell: How does this spell combine with other metamagic feats and using higher-level slots for lower-level spells?
Heighten Spell is worded poorly and can be confusing. It lets you use a higher-level spell slot for a spell, treating the spell as if it were naturally a higher level spell than the standard version. Unlike Still Spell, which always adds +1 to the level of the spell slot used for a spell, Heighten Spell lets you decide increase a spell's level anywhere from +1 to +9, using a spell slot that is that many spell levels higher than the normal spell.
The language implies that the heightened spell uses whatever spell level is used to prepare or cast it, but the rules text was inherited from 3.5 and doesn't take into account (1) the normal rule allowing you to prepare a spell with a higher-level spell slot, and (2) combining it with other metamagic feats.
For (1), having Heighten Spell doesn't mean any spell you cast with a higher-level slot is automatically heightened; you still have to make the decision to prepare or cast the spell an normal or heightened.
If you are a non-spontaneous caster (such as a cleric or wizard) who wants to prepare a lower-level spell in a higher-level slot, there is no reason not to use Heighten Spell on that spell (it doesn't cost you any extra time or any other game "currency").
If you are a spontaneous caster, heightening a spell when using a higher-level spell slot still increases the casting time, just like any other use of metamagic, so you have to weigh the benefits of either
• casting it normally using the higher-level slot
vs.
• increasing the casting time to cast it as a heightened spell and treat the spell as the level of the spell slot you're using.
Example A 10th-level sorcerer could cast fireball using a 3rd-, 4th-, or 5th-level spell slot, it would only be a standard action casting time, would count as a 3rd-level spell, and have a DC of 13 + Charisma bonus. If she had Heighten Spell and wanted to heighten it using a 4th- or 5th-level spell slot, it would have a full-round action casting time, but would count as a 4th- or 5th-level spell and have a DC of 14 + Cha bonus (for a 4th-level spell) or 15 + Cha bonus (for a 5th-level slot).For (2), you can't apply Heighten Spell to a spell at no cost: any increase to the effective spell level of the spell must be tracked and paid for by using a higher-level spell slot, above and beyond any other spell level increases from the other metamagic feats.
Example: A 15th-level wizard has Quicken Spell. If he prepares a quickened fireball, that requires a 7th-level spell slot (fireball 3rd level + quicken 4 levels). The spell's DC is still 13 + his Int bonus because it's still just a 3rd-level spell, even though it's in a 7th-level spell slot. If he also has Heighten Spell, the spell is not automatically heightened; it still counts as a 3rd-level spell and has the DC of a 3rd-level spell. If he wants to increase the quickened fireball's effective level with Heighten Spell, he needs to use an even higher level spell slot than the adjusted spell level from the Quicken Spell feat. Increasing the fireball's effective spell level by +1 (from 3rd to 4th) requires using a spell slot +1 level higher (in this case, an 8th-level spell slot instead of a 7th-level slot); increasing the fireball's effective spell level by +2 (from 3rd to 5th) requires using a spell slot +2 levels higher (in this case, a 9th-level spell slot instead of a 7th-level slot).Another way to look at (2) it is to add Heighten Spell first, then other metamagic feats. Continuing the above example, you'd first heighten the fireball to a 4th-level spell, then quicken it, which requires an 8th-level spell slot (fireball 4th level + quicken 4 levels). Or first heighten the fireball to a 5th-level spell, then quicken it, which requires a 9th-level spell slot (fireball 5th level + quicken 4 levels).
(Heighten Spell is a weak metamagic feat and has limited utility when combined with other metamagic feats.)
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Ok, I had only read the original text, which like the FAQ entry says, is really really deceptive. That's... a pretty weak feat, when you take it in the context of the FAQ. It sounded situationally useful before, just as a little bonus when counting other metamagic, but I think I'm going to remove it from my build now.
That said, that interpretation does imho lead a lot more credence to the possibility of Heighten working with Magical Lineage, since it's not a +0 ability, it's a +[Insert Value Here] ability - if I were DMing I would be inclined to allow it if I didn't see a further FAQ clarification prohibiting the combination. That said, it's so DM dependent that it's not really worth pursuing as a player.
Heighten Metamagic actually changes the base level of the spell, and the trait does not allow you to case a spell of level X in a lower level slot. It would work on other metamagic feats however.