Hello, I'm new here and to the Pathfinder game and need some help, our GM is going to start the Kingmaker campaign soon and I totally new to D&D or Pathfinder for that matter. I'll need some advice and tips from more experienced people like you. I don't want a complete Powergaming Character but I do need to be good enough at what I want to do.
I'm aiming at playing a Human Male Sorcerer, Arcane Bloodline, with a familiar, a scorpion or other animal with +4 on initiative as I realize I'll need it, later one I probably take the Improved Familiar Feat and I don't know what these are or what you would recommend, are there other restrictions to consider here as well?
He is going to be the Party’s face and needs some skills. He will be an all-round sorcerer, using mostly Conjuration (Summoning or spells creating pits or such) but he will have to have a blast spell which will work good as well as well as some other utility spells.
We have a 20 point by system so i think I'll go with these stats:
Sty 8
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 19
I know my Int score is high but I needed for skills as I'll be the party’s face most likely, which means Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate.
Any changes you would suggest?
I've read the Trait list and think these two traits are good for starters:
1. Magical lineage - good background story with it and I'll need some help to choose a spell for it.
2. Extremely Fashionable - access to Diplomacy as skill and bonus on all three social skills.
Comments on the starting traits? Could I do without The Extremely Fashionable trait and choose a better trait?
Feats; how many good are there? It's a complete mess for me to choose one or the other, but I think I have narrowed it down to:
Starting: Spell focus Conjuration
Lvl 1: Toughness
Lvl 3: Augment Summoning
Lvl 5: Empower Spell
Lvl 7: Improved familiar (any tips on a familiar to choose?)
Bonus: Improved Initiative
Lvl 9: Leadership
Lvl 11: Persistent spell
Lvl 13: Dazing Spell
Bonus: XXX
Lvl 15: Spell perfection
Lvl 17: Quicken Spell
I'm not sure about these Feats, some of them need to be attached to spells as well and I need help with this too.
I know there are some good Crafting Feats which would be nice; Craft Wondrous Item, Scribe Scrolls, Craft Rod, etc., but what should I replace if I took that route? What does one need to craft and what is essential?
Spells:
Starting Lvl 0:
Acid Splash
Detect Magic
Ghost Sound
Prestidigitation
Starting Lvl 1:
Grease
Color Spray or Silent Image
Are these good starting spells?
There after I need a lot of help, there are a lot of interesting and good spells but I am unsure which to pick first and which to attach to my Feats or starting Trait Magical lineage. What spells are good with which Feats?
Here are some I know are good, but when should I choose them and are there others that would be better? Which should I use with Feats or Traits?
Lvl 2:
Summon Monster II
Invisibility
Levitate
Glitterdust
Web
Mirror Image
Lvl 3:
Summon Monster III
Haste
Stinking Cloud
Lvl 4:
Dragon's Breath
Lvl 5:
Geyser
I know I am wishing for a lot of help but I hope that you could find the time and motivation to help me out :)
Righto. Starting from the top:
-Str 8 might mean you need to get your party members to carry some of your stuff or you'll have to pack very light. It's certainly doable for a Sorcerer, but watch your encumbrance (unless your GM just ignores that stuff).
-I do think Int 14 is a little high but I can understand your reasoning. Personally I think I would swap it with Dex, but that's me. 12 Int + Human is an easy 4 per level.
-Magical Lineage is an excellent trait, but one for a pretty narrow set of characters. It does its best on characters built entirely around one spell, usually a direct-damage combat spell. For example, the Magus can make good use of it with Shocking Grasp (with Intensified Spell) or Frostbite (with Rime Spell). Blaster-oriented Wizards, Arcanists, and Sorcerers tend to look to Fireball. However, if you're not going to dedicate a great deal of your resources to a particular spell, it's not worthwhile.
-You could do without Extremely Fashionable, but it's not a bad choice by any means. Relatively early on the 150gp outfit cost becomes irrelevant; your Ring of Protection +1 is worth well more than that and jewelry counts.
Feats: You seem to be going summons-focused, which is a solid way to go. There are a few that deserve mention here though:
Empower Spell seems like an odd choice. It's best used with direct-attack spells, but you have few to none of those. While it can be used to generate a few more summoned monsters, the +2 level increase almost always screws that out of being useful compared to just casting, say, Summon Monster V instead of Empowered Summon Monster III. Dazing Spell is in a similar boat; with so few direct-damage spells and no build focus on them, you're generally not going to get your DCs high enough for it to matter.
Improved Familiar's options depends on your alignment. Do you know what that's going to be yet?
Leadership is generally considered the single most powerful feat in the game. I would consult with your GM before you take it, because it's often banned.
Spell Perfection should be handled in basically the same way as Magical Lineage. Its use generally requires significant dedication to a single spell
Evolved Summon Monster is an awesome choice. I'd take it at level 5 over Empowered Spell. Pouncing Earth Elementals are fun.
While crafting is extremely powerful, you need to keep in mind two things. The first is that, while it's not as bad as Leadership, crafting is still very powerful and something a lot of GMs like to limit. Again, talk with your GM before you take that route. The second thing to keep in mind is that you're not a Wizard. It's relatively trivial for a Wizard to craft things because Spellcraft is an Int-based skill and they can often meet enough requirements to not push DCs up too high. You won't have those capabilities, and some DCs can get very high if you can't meet requirements. Even a simple first-level Runestone of Power is a DC22 Spellcraft check; you won't be able to create one consistently until level 7 (barring Int boosting). The Wizard can probably hit that from level 3. Higher-order items can have DCs ranging into the 40s if you can't hit prereqs.
This is not to say that you can't be a crafter, just that you'll be a bit less capable than a Wizard would be. Generally, if you're going to craft you'll want Craft Wondrous Items and maybe Craft Magic Arms & Armor; everything else can be done without.
Spells: Let's break this down by level
I'm honestly not a fan of Color Spray for a Sorcerer. I've used it to great effect, but typically on more durable casters who aren't as likely to get one-shotted in the early levels.
At first level: Consider Mage Armor, Shield, Summon Monster I (not a useful spell at all and not a starting spell, but required for Evolved Summon Monster), Protection From Evil, Infernal Healing, Hydraulic Push, and Magic Missile.
At second level: Consider Create Pit, Resist Energy, Fog Cloud, and False Life. Also, I wouldn't take Summon Monster II. They're not all worthwhile, and taking every one means you're going to be doing a lot of retraining down the line. Personally, I would take every odd Summon Monster.
3rd: Spiked Pit, Arcane Sight, Heroism, Fly, and Fireball. Fireball requires a great deal of build dedication to really be worthwhile, but it can allow you to sling some rather nasty blasts around if you feel the need. That said, it would likely require dropping the summoning oriented stuff to make room.
4th: Acid Pit, Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Enervation, Ice Storm. Dragon's Breath is honestly not a great spell, though not unusable. Typically Fireball is seen as better (an Intensified Fireball in particular is the same level as Dragon's Breath, but caps three dice higher and has a more useful area).
5th: Wall of Stone, Wall of Force, Cloudkill, Teleport, Baleful Polymorph, Icy Prison, Hold Monster. I can't say that I'm particularly fond of Geyser, looking at it.
Other stuff:
-Summons can get complicated. In addition to your character sheet, I would advise having separate mini-sheets for the monsters you like to summon (I know lots of people like 3x5 cards for this). Include their stats with Augment Summons and Evolved Summon Monster. This can dramatically speed up game play.
-Welcome to Pathfinder!
lots of Kingmaker is outside. I'd suggest a horse and a rank or two in Ride. Should solve your encumbrance problem.
Social skills are only useful when you speak the language. Throw a point or two at Linguistics.
As a sorcerer, your spell list will be short. So, make sure you like the spells you have. There are multiple good things to choose from, but it's not wrong to pick based on fun.
conjuration is generally good, remember to add in a defense and a buff spell and amoility spell every so often.
By level 7 or so, you'll want to be able to target a fort save, a reflex save, a will save, AC, and touch AC. Start thinking about ways to overcome SR.
And yes, empower is a curious choice.
You can wait on picking an improved familiar for a while. See what comes up in play, and what you need during levels 1-6.
If a horse is out of your budget to start with, you can always take a much cheaper pony or donkey, which is easier to feed and still fills the role of carrying your stuff. You can even call him Bill.
I'm rather surprised your GM isn't requiring that you take a campaign feat, as that's pretty typical for APs, but it's to your advantage since none of the campaign feats are going to help you do what you want to do.
One thing to note, there's nothing in the rules that say your familiar can't fill in as a kingdom role, and some of the improved familiars have awesome baseline stats. As a sorcerer, you're probably going to want to be the kingdom's magister, even though as the party's face, you'd also make an excellent grand diplomat. Having a Lyrakien Azata fixes that, since their base Charisma is 20 and they get to use all your ranks in Diplomacy. It's something to think about and bring up with your GM/party.
Thanks, for all your input! Very kind of you all :)
I'll try to get a pony or something like that in the beginning and try to have as little gear as possible when off the pony :)
Ver helpful that you need the language for the Social skills, any languages that you could recommend for the Kingmaker, without spoling to much?
The Familiari; My Alignment is importent for this? Ok, I'll probably be Neutral Good, "the result and goal is more important then the means to get there" attitude. Any good ideas as what will be a good familiari? Is there a possibility that the familiari could help out with the crafting part?
Is it a good idea to change the stats to:
Sty 8
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 18
It will take me longer to get to Cha 20 but I'll have higher dex.
Or should i put 14 in Con instead of Dex, would that mean I should be able to do without the Toughness Feat?
Feats, traits and spell combonations;
Magical lineage; how do you get more out of it?
How do you attach this trait and add some feats to it to make a good solid blaster spell? Combine it with Dazing or Empowered or Spell Perfection? I need a few good attackspells :)
Could you give me a few combonations of trait-feat-spell so I understand what I should aim for and give me a feel for how it works?
What gets me into the range of a good DC for a spell like Create Pit or Web for example?
I'll ask my GM concering the Leadership feat, before I take it.
Evolved Summon Monster, I've missed that one, thanks :)
I'll try to fit Craft Wondrous Items in somewhere as the GM said it will be some downtime in the Kingmaker, what prerequests should I be on the whatch out for?
Could I get help to arrange the Feats in a order that is most usefull for me?
Spell set up:
Starting:
Lvl 0:
Acid Splash
Detect Magic
Ghost Sound
Prestidigitation
Starting Lvl 1:
Grease
Shield
Is this a good starting setup?
For the next levels; which of these and in what order should I choose them?
Taken into account that I would like to, as suggested, at 7th lvl be able to target a fort save, a reflex save, a will save, AC, and touch AC what spells do you recommend? How do I overcome SR? With Feats or by choosing the right spells?
Lvl 1:
Summon Monster I
Protection From Evil
Infernal Healing
Silent Image
Hydraulic Push
Magic Missile
Mage Armor
Lvl 2:
Create Pit
Invisibility
False Life
Levitate
Resist Energy
Fog Cloud
Glitterdust
Web
Mirror Image
Lvl 3:
Summon Monster III
Haste
Stinking Cloud
Spiked Pit
Heroism
Fly
Fireball
Arcane Sight
Lvl 4:
Acid Pit
Black Tentacles
Dimension Door
Enervation
Ice Storm
Lvl 5:
Cloudkill
Wall of Stone
Wall of Force
Teleport
Baleful Polymorph
Icy Prison
Hold Monster
Thanks for the advice on keeping a seperate sheet for Summoning :)
If you are going to be the group skill monkey consider going down the Sage acrane wildblooded route. This changes your casting stat to Int and means you will have all of the skill points and can dump charisma. You can still be the face using the Student of philosophy trait which allows you to use your Int for the parts of Diplomacy and Bluf that you actually care about. You do lose the familair but the benefits are worth it.
I would not go down the summoning route as a sorcerer as you lack any effective way to make your summons a standard action cast time. There are also a number of spells I would recommend investing in either as spells known or with pages of spell knowleedge (for low level ones):
Level 1: Vanish (easy to use to escape), Burning Hands (early swarm issues), Charm Person (generically useful), Silent Image (very versatile depending on your GM), Feather Fall. I would avoid Infernal Healing as a known spell and buy wands.
Level 2: Burst of Radiance (reflex based blindness). Levitate will become redundant very quickly and Fog Cloud probably isnt needed, you can spoof it with something like Silent Image.
Level 3: Suggestion (generally useful), Aqueous Orb (excellent control). Spiked Pit isnt needed when you already have Create Pit, the control element is far more important than the damage.
Level 4: Emergency Force Sphere (amazing defence), Charm Monster (geenrally useful), Confusion or Fear (large area will save), Elemental Body 1 (amazing buff spell but check with your GM if you can cast spells in it). Ice Storm is pretty rubbish. Enervation is OK but most fights will be over before the debuff is relevant.
Level 5: Hungry Pit, this is an excellent upgrade to the basic pit and will kill anything unable to get out of it. The walls are good but two are unnecssary. Icy Prison and Baleful Polymorph are redundant. Cloudkill takes too long to kill anything.
As far as SR goes you want a selection of SR: No spells such as Glitterdust, Aqueous Orb, Black Tentacles and Pits but I would also pick up Spell Peentration and Greater Penetration at some point for your non conjuration spells. I would also look closely at the Razmirian Priest archetype. At level 9 you can activate divine scrolls without expending them using spell slots which adds huge versatility. I would also consider being a half elf so you can grab Paragon Surge. This will allow you to grab one or two spells of a level you can cast every day and let you engage in the sort of shennanigans prepared casters get to do bt ignoring the limit on spells known.
Familiar: I'm a fan of both the Faerie Dragon and Pseudodragon, personally. The former more than the latter but both are cool. Also, your GM may allow the familiar to use Aid Another to improve your Spellcraft checks to create items, but that's a pretty big may. The Valet familiar archetype lets them double your crafting time and grants a +2 bonus on the checks though.
Stats: Really depends on just how single-mindedly you want to pump Cha-- and by extension, how focused you want to be on spells with DCs. Personally I think I'd stick 19 but I'm still in favor of the 12 Int plan. Take that as you will.
Lineage/Spell Perfection combinations: Fireball + Intensified Spell has the Fireball cap at 15D6 as a level 3 spell; with tricks like Spell Specialization, Varisian Tattoo, and an Orange Prism Ioun Stone, one could be doing that same 15D6 as early as level 11. Fireball + Empowered Spell is the same damage, as a fourth-level slot, and with the same tricks (less of them, even) you can do that as soon as you have fourth-level spells. Going forward, adding Spell Perfection usually means volleys like Quickened Dazing Fireballs (10D6 as a swift action, Ref for half, fail the save and be useless for three rounds) plus Maximized Intensified Empowered Fireballs (90+7D6 damage, Reflex for half), a combination that uses a pair of fifth-level spell slots to cripple a field of mooks. However, this is insanely build-intensive. If you want to take this route, I suggest looking up Brewer's Guide to the Blockbuster Wizard.
Crafting: Really, pre-reqs are a question of what you want to be making, and that's pretty group-dependent (as hopefully you'll be willing to craft for your allies as well). For some items, you really won't notice (Headband of Alluring Charisma is a DC18 item... if you take ten on the check, that's doable pretty much as soon as you get the feat). For some big-ticket toys though, you'll want to look ahead and see what you need (Otherwordly Kimono is a very good item. Normally, it's a DC20 check. However, it has three pre-requisites: Heighten Spell, Resistance, and Maze. Missing all three brings it up to DC35, which with 14 Int and a Valet familiar is doable at level 18). It would be nice to get that down, and it's doable. Resistance is a cantrip, so take that and suddenly it's craftable at level 13, much more reasonable. But to do it earlier you'd need to burn one of your limited feat slots (doable, to be honest, as Heighten Spell is pretty solid), since Maze is an 8th level spell. So, level 13 is probably your best bet, and that's fine... but you'll need to shop around for things like that so you know to take Resistance before all of your cantrip slots are full.
I'll have to come back and comment on the rest when I have more time.
Siri --
I am a person who LOVES playing sorcerers. I adore them, as a matter of fact.
Sorcerers make awesome party faces, especially with the help of traits like Extremely Fashionable. (The other trait that I like to use to get diplomacy is affable -- it gives no trait bonus, but provides both diplomacy and knowledge local as class skills.)
However, Sorcerers are not skill monkeys. That's a job for everyone else in your group. Who are your fellow party members? Let them take on the burden of the other skills.
At first level, leave either bluff or intimidate untrained. I ran my lying liar of a sorceress (Zahra) through 2 levels of PFS with bluff untrained and managed to lie all the time on my charisma alone.
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Some first level spells that are worth looking at:
1) Silent Image. It's a battlefield control spell with 1001 uses. Hide behind your wall! Block a doorway! Box up an enemy caster so he can't see. Create an arrow cage that your guys can see out of and shoot arrows out of.
2) Snowball, especially at lower levels. At first blush, it's another blast, though one that packs a wallop at level 5. At second blush... If your target makes their fort save, they take full damage. If they fail it, they get staggered, which means they can only move (once) or attack (once). Use it against creatures with multiple attacks and save your front line a ton of damage! It is GREAT damage and good battlefield control, all in one sweet little spell!
3) Grease -- best level 1 battlefield control spell. Grease a spot in front of doorways and watch people fall. Do this in front of your melee person with combat reflexes and watch them enjoy a ton of attacks of opportunity. Grease an enemy's weapon! Grease your party members when they get grabbed by an owlbear, or yourself when you trigger a trap and a net falls on you and you need to make an escape artist roll.
Thoughts on spells mentioned in this thread:
Color spray is stupidly good at level 1, but loses power fast. It's not a bad choice at all, but take it knowing that you will trade it out at level 4.
Summon Monster can be skipped until 4th level when you can pick up Summon Monster II. I simply adore Summon Monster II because I can summon elementals to scout. I have yet to ask them to actually fight for me (my melee guys want all the glory, poor sods) but earth elementals are great at answering questions like: "What's on the other side of that door?" and "Did that nasty person really bury his missing wife's body in the cellar?"
If you are looking for a magic trait, have you seen transmuter of Korada? It's plus one caster level to the entire transmutation school. That might be a great alternative to magical lineage.
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