| Ualaa |
I'm in the planning stage for my next campaign for my players. It is going to be a ways off, since we still have the latter third of the current campaign (Fire Mountain Games's - Way of the Wicked) to finish.
My plan is to use a slightly modified Rappan Athuk. Due to the lethality of the adventure, I'm allowing my players stronger than average characters.
Ideally, I would like characters to be strong enough to survive the challenges, but weak enough that the dungeon presents a challenge. So, I'm kind of looking for a barometer of what kind of characters are possible, given my build rules. The build rules can be tweaked before the campaign actually starts, to hopefully reach a point where the players have very powerful characters, which they'll likely not get to use anytime soon... but in a setting that has a strong chance of pushing them and possibly finishing off several sets of characters along the way... but with characters who are strong enough that they can survive if they play a bit smart.
I have a mechanic in mind for replacing characters who are lost beyond recovery, or for a player who just wants a new character, while simultaneously removing that character's items/wealth. The new character would then enter, at average party level and wealth (likely with a maximum value of 20% of that total invested into a single item). Most of my players enjoy the progress of a character from 1st to 20th, but that's not saying they'll have the component on hand or even access to a Raise Dead type spell yet, when someone dies or their corpse is lost beyond recovery. One of my players tends to get bored with a character, and would likely switch to a new character if his existing character died (but would not suicide the current character just for a new one).
My group can be impulsive at times, and just rush in to kill something rather than scout, investigate, or research what is ahead. That naturally drastically increases the difficulty of an already very hard adventure.
We're playing with Paizo Pathfinder products that also exist as available data packages for Hero Labs. The only third party material is the revised (hardcover) Ultimate Psionics, by Dreamscarred Press. If the content is 3rd party or from 3.5 than it is not valid unless specifically allowed (the Gestalt Rules, are from Unearthed Arcana and will be specifically allowed for example).
We're using a number of house rules primarily based off of Trailblazer, by Badaxe Games... with a little bit from Iron Heroes as well. They're not necessarily exactly the Trailblazer/Iron Heroes versions, but I will try to summarize what we are using.
| Ualaa |
House Rules in effect:
HPs & Skills
- Characters receive their 'At Creation' CON score (not Modifier) as a one-time hit point bonus
- Characters receive maximum hit points for their first two levels
- Thereafter, hit points are rolled with D4s (D6 classes roll 1D4+2 ... D12 classes roll 1D4+8)
- Every class has a minimum of 4+INT mod skill points per level
Weapons
- The absolute maximum threat range is 18-20, no combination ever allows critical threats/hits on 17 or lower; the maximum critical damage is x4, and does not apply to extra damage such as Flaming or Sneak Dice
- A x2 critical inflicts 1.0x Maximum Damage, a x3 critical inflicts 1.5x Maximum Damage, and a x4 critical inflicts 2.0x Maximum Damage
- The maximum weapon damage is 3D8, even if you're using Righteous Might with a Gargantuan sized Greatsword
Critical Hits & Sneak Attacks
- No creature/character is inherently immune, as a function of its type, but can become immune via an item or Prestige Class that grants protection from Critical Hits or Precision/Sneak damage.
- Fortification items impose a -2, -5 and -10 penalty to Critical Confirmation rolls.
Full-Attacks
- At BAB +6, instead of receiving a second attack at +6/+1 (and apply other modifiers), characters receive two attacks, both at +4/+4 (both attacks at -2).
- At BAB +11, this improves to two total attacks: +10/+10 (both at -1).
- At BAB +16, this improves to two total attacks: +16/+16 (no penalty).
- Abilities like Rapid Fire or Two-Weapon Fighting add additional attacks, and apply the normal penalty to all attacks that round.
Combat Reactions
- Characters have one Combat Reaction at BAB +0 (or higher) and gain an additional Combat Reaction for each +5 increase in BAB (2 at BAB +5, 3 at BAB +10, 4 at BAB +15 and 5 at BAB +20)
- These can be used at aid an allies attack roll (by +2 to hit), if you're adjacent to the ally's target.
- Taking an Attack of Opportunity costs a Combat Reaction, and with no Combat Reactions remaining you cannot take an AoO even if something provokes.
- With a Shield equipped, you can reduce your damage taken, via the Block Combat Reaction (reducing damage by an amount equal to 1/2 your BAB plus the bonus your shield grants to AC).
- You can Dodge, which increases your AC by 1/2 your BAB.
Attacks of Opportunity
- Engaging an enemy (moving towards it) does not provoke an AoO.
- Moving while adjacent to the enemy (say three squares to move into a Flank) does not provoke either.
- Moving away (Disengaging) from the enemy does provoke, as do Distracting Actions within a threatened square (as per normal).
Retraining
- At each level increase, one feat which is not a prerequisite for another feat may be retrained for another feat which your character qualifies for.
- If a minor feature (skill selection, Rogue Talent, etc) isn't working out as intended, that can be changed in the place of a feat.
Feats
- Brew Potion, Craft Wand and Scribe Scroll are permissible feats, but the crafting of more complex Magical Items has been lost (no Crafting of Armor, Weapons, Rods, Staves, etc)
- The Leadership feat, is not a valid choice.
- Most weapon specific feats (Weapon Focus/Specialization, Improved Critical, etc), apply to one of these categories: Bludgeoning Melee Weapons, Piercing Melee Weapons, Slashing Melee Weapons, or Ranged Weapons; Exotic Weapon Proficiency still only applies to a single new weapon.
Action Points
- Characters begin with 5 (plus 1/2 your level, rounded down) Action Points.
- At level up, any unspent Action Points are lost, and a new total is awarded; there are no other methods to gaining an Action Point.
- An Action Point can Confirm a Critical Hit automatically, Negate a Critical Hit that has been confirmed against you, or grant 2D6 exploding dice to most D20 rolls (these can modify success/failure, but cannot make a non-threat base roll threaten a critical hit).
- An Action Point can grant an additional Standard or Move Action on your turn.
- You can never spend more than one action point in a round.
Buff Slots
- Characters begins with two buff slots at 1st level.
- They gain an additional buff slot at 5th (their 3rd), 10th (their 4th), 15th (their 5th) and 20th (their 6th and final buff slot).
- A bonus granted from an item which occupies a Magical Item Slot does not consume a Buff Slot.
- Also several (or perhaps most) class abilities such as a Barbarian Raging or a Druid's Wildshape do not use a Buff Slot.
- Casting a spell, which gives an effect that lasts no longer than until your next turn also does not use a Buff Slot.
- A 4th level character (with two Buff Slots) could have any two of Mage Armor, Shield and Barkskin, but upon casting the third buff it either fails to take hold or cancels one of the existing buffs (player's choice).
- Effects like Invisibility, Mirror Image, Fly, Stoneskin, Polymorph/Shapechange spells, Bull's Strength or the like all take buff slots.
| Ualaa |
GESTALT
Gestalt Builds - two classes at once merged into a single hybrid class.
01 Fighter 01 | Rogue 01 1D4+6 HD, 1.00 BAB, 030/12 Fort, 030/12 REF, 004/12 Will.
02 Fighter 02 | Rogue 02 1D4+6 HD, 2.00 BAB, 036/12 Fort, 036/12 Ref, 008/12 Will.
03 Fighter 03 | Barbarian 01 1D4+8 HD, 3.00 BAB, 042/12 Fort, 040/12 Ref, 012/12 Will.
04 Fighter 04 | Barbarian 01 1D4+8 HD, 4.00 BAB, 048/12 Fort, 046/12 Ref, 016/12 Will.
05 Fighter 05 | Rogue 03 1D4+6 HD, 5.00 BAB, 054/12 Fort, 052/12 Ref, 020/12 Will.
The character is not a Fighter 5, Rogue 3, Barbarian 2. The character has three levels in Fighter|Rogue and two levels in Fighter|Barbarian. There are a total of five character levels here.
We're using Fractional BAB, Fractional SAVES, and Fractional PROGRESSIONS (basically, even if you alternate the levels that two classes provide say Sneak Attack dice, you cannot have more than the better progression at 20th level (likely 10 Sneak Dice)).
At each level, a character either gains 1.00, 0.75, or 0.50 BAB, always considering the most favorable of their two classes. The Fighter's (1.00, meaning +20 BAB at level 20) is superior to the Rogue's (0.75, meaning +15 BAB at level 20). A Wizard/Sorcerer gains 0.50 BAB (meaning +10 BAB at level 20).
If you went with:
01 Wizard 01 | Fighter 01
02 Wizard 02 | Sorcerer 01
03 Wizard 03 | Sorcerer 02
20 Wizard 20 | Sorcerer 19
You would not have +20 BAB (by staggering when each class gained their +1 BAB increase (each at every other level)) as a Wizard 20|Fighter 01/Sorcerer 19.
Fractional Saves can be expressed by increments of 1/12th. If at character level one, a Saving Throw is good, the character begins with 30/12ths in that save (+2.50, rounded to +2 on the character sheet). If at level one, a Saving Throw is poor, the character begins with 4/12ths in that save (0.33, rounded to +0 on the character sheet).
After level 1, each save increases by either 6/12ths or 4/12ths.
In the above example, at 3rd level the Barbarian (and Fighter) both increase the character's FORT save by 6/12ths, despite a Barbarian having +2 FORT at Barbarian Level One.
Dual Advancement Classes are not valid in a Gestalt game. Meaning, you cannot take levels in Mystic Theurge, Cerebremancer, Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster or anything similar to those.
Prestige Classes are valid, on either side of the build, but only one prestige class at a time. You can go BASE CLASS | PRESTIGE CLASS, or BASE | BASE, but not PRESTIGE | PRESTIGE at the same time. However you want to express your build, you can have Prestige Classes on both the Left and/or Right sides of the build.
If you're good with merely +1 Hit Point or +1 Skill Point (choose at each level increase), you can pick 'Gestalt' as your Favored Class Bonus.
If you'd like options such as 'Extra Spell Known' for a Human Sorcerer, then you need to pick Sorcerer as your Favored Class Bonus (or one of your two favored classes, if you're a Half-Elf) instead of Gestalt.
Racial Classes (see this thread: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m6rz&page=1?Savage-Species-Rulebook-Conver sion or specifically https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6rJbTyPSm6CUWpsV0FrYlhKWlU/edit?pli=1 ) are allowed.
They occupy both sides of the build, until complete (meaning you cannot take four levels in Ghaele, then some Fighter | Cleric levels, before returning to your Ghaele race).
In case you're wondering, a Ghaele is 13 racial levels... meaning you could end up with: Ghaele - Cleric 7|Rogue 7.
RACES & STATS
Base Races (Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Halfling and Human) use a 25-point stat array.
Uncommon Races (Aasimar, Blue, Catfolk, Dhampir, Drow, Duegar, Elan, Fetchling, Forgeborn, Goblin, Half-Giant, Hobgoblin, Ifrit, Kobold, Maenad, Noral, Ophiduan, Orc, Oread, Ratfolk, Sylph, Tengu, Tiefling, Undine and Xeph) use a 20-point stat array.
Other races are all subject to approval, but use a net 0-point array.
A Drow Noble has: STR 10, DEX 14, CON 08, INT 12, WIS 12, CHA 12, not +4 DEX, +2 INT, +2 WIS, +2 CHA and -2 CON applied to a point array.
Being a 1HD race, its' first Gestalt Level will overwrite its' racial hit dice.
The Ghaele starts with STR 12, DEX 10, CON 12, INT 12, WIS 10, CHA 10... and over 13 racial levels progresses towards final stats appropriate for its race: STR 25, DEX 12, CON 20, INT 16, WIS 19, CHA 17.
It has 13D10 hit points (10 max plus 12 CON score = 22 level one hit points.... 10 max at level 2... and 1D4+6 for levels 3 through 13th), +13 BAB, +8 FORT (096/12), +4 REF (48/12), +8 WILL (096/12), and racially casts spells as a Cleric equal to its racial hit dice (so continuing with Cleric might an idea on one side of the build... if Cleric is not one of their two classes beyond 13th, the Ghaele has the casting of an equivalent cleric level but no domain access). Class levels (outside of Cleric) will not advance it's racial casting.
Is it stronger than a LV 13 Fighter 13|Cleric 13? It has the same HD, saves, attacks, spells (minus Domains), probably has better stats and can fly...
TRAITS
Characters begin with one trait. At character creation (and only then), they can take the Feat 'Extra Traits' for two additional traits, if desired.
WEALTH
Initial characters begin with 400 gp of mundane (no magic) gear; excess (unspent) wealth beyond 100 gp is lost.
MYTHIC
I'm not sure if this would add too much to an already powerful game... but one mythic rank at level 1, which likely will never increase.
That's 1 Path Ability and 1 Mythic Feat or possibly 2 Mythic Feats, if 'Extra Mythic Feat' is taken as your only 'Path Ability'.
DM-PC
If no one opts to fill the 'Primary Healer' role, the DM will build a heal-bot type character that will follow the party about providing strong healing but no other benefits. This heal-bot will be both very greedy and more than a little vindictive...
| Ualaa |
I have two ideas for a healer type character... one is based around primarily playing an Oracle (Life Mystery) and the other is built off of a Nymph (Racial Levels) which then progresses into Druid.
The Oracle will have superior healing, likely by a long shot. The major drawback to Oracle is that one of my players currently leans towards an Oracle (Battle Mastery) | Paladin build... envisioned/built as 'Main Tank', and I'd rather not have an NPC Healer (the group either often doesn't have a primary healer, or if they do then a player has gone that route despite preferring another role).
The Nymph has 7 levels of Druid Healing, through 8 racial levels. Cure Light Wounds is a level one spell for Cleric/Oracles as well as Druids. However Cure Moderate Wounds isn't available until 3rd level spells for a Druid, while it is a 2nd level spell for other healers. If I went with Mythic Spellcasting (as the Mythic Ability) and chose Cure Light Wounds, then we have a level 1 heal which hits for 2D8+ (2/LV, capping at +10)... which is likely similar power to a normal Cleric's/Oracle's healing power with non-Mythic 'Cure Light Wounds' and 'Cure Moderate Wounds'. My healer doesn't have to shine, just be sufficient to the task... the PCs are the ones who should enjoy the spotlight.
| Ualaa |
Aasimar (Uncommon race, so using a 20-point buy).
Using the alternate racial feature +2 CHA, in the place of the power Daylight.
So racial abilities are: +2 WIS, +4 CHA, Darkvision to 60 ft., Celestial Resistance (5 resistance to Acid, Cold, and Electricity), and Skilled (+2 Diplomacy and Perception).
STR 10 = 10
DEX 10 = 10
CON 10 = 10
INT 13 = 13
WIS 16 = 18
CHA 15 = 19
All level based stat increases to Charisma.
Oracle (Life Mystery), Monk (Zen Archer), Ranger, and Warpriest (Sacred Fist)
LV CLASS A | CLASS B ....... BAB .. Fort Ref Will .. HD
01 Oracle 01 | Monk 01 ..... 00.75 +02 +02 +02 08
02 Oracle 02 | Warpriest 01 01.50 +03 +02 +03 08
03 Oracle 03 | Monk 02 ..... 02.25 +03 +03 +03 D4+4
04 Oracle 04 | Monk 03 ..... 03.00 +04 +03 +04 D4+4
05 Oracle 05 | Ranger 01 .. 04.00 +04 +04 +04 D4+6
06 Oracle 06 | Ranger 02 .. 05.00 +05 +04 +05 D4+6
07 Oracle 07 | Ranger 03 .. 06.00 +05 +05 +05 D4+6
08 Oracle 08 | Ranger 04 .. 07.00 +06 +05 +06 D4+6
09 Oracle 09 | Ranger 05 .. 08.00 +06 +06 +06 D4+6
10 Oracle 10 | Ranger 06 .. 09.00 +07 +06 +07 D4+6
11 Oracle 11 | Ranger 07 .. 10.00 +07 +07 +07 D4+6
12 Oracle 12 | Ranger 08 .. 11.00 +08 +07 +08 D4+6
13 Oracle 13 | Ranger 09 .. 12.00 +08 +08 +08 D4+6
14 Oracle 14 | Ranger 10 .. 13.00 +09 +08 +09 D4+6
15 Oracle 15 | Ranger 11 .. 14.00 +09 +09 +09 D4+6
16 Oracle 16 | Ranger 12 .. 15.00 +10 +09 +10 D4+6
17 Oracle 17 | Ranger 13 .. 16.00 +10 +10 +10 D4+6
18 Oracle 18 | Ranger 14 .. 17.00 +11 +10 +11 D4+6
19 Oracle 19 | Ranger 15 .. 18.00 +11 +11 +11 D4+6
20 Oracle 20 | Ranger 16 .. 19.00 +12 +11 +12 D4+6
+1 BAB short of +20 at LV 20; +1 REF save short of +12 at 20th.
Monk (Zen Archer) provides:
Improved Unarmed Strike, Point-Blank Shot and Rapid Shot.
Perfect Strike, Point Blank Master (Longbow) and Weapon Focus (Longbow) as bonus feats.
Fast Movement +10 ft.
WISDOM to AC.
Warpriest (Sacred Fist) provides:
Five extra LV 0 spells.
Healing Blessing - Powerful Healer (add Empower to any heal spell, as a Swift Action (does not stack with Empower)).
WISDOM to AC.
Ranger provides:
Full BAB.
Strong FORT & REF (weak saves for an Oracle).
D10 HD (better than the Oracle's D8).
Archery feats, from the Archer Combat Style.
Ranger provides the Evasion (eventually), that the Monk gave up for WIS to archery attacks.
6 skill points per level.
Oracle (Life Mystery) provides:
Channel Positive Energy (as a Cleric).
Enhanced Cures (Oracle LV is the cap for Cure spells... example at LV 15, Cure Light Wounds is 1D8+15).
Safe Curing (Healing doesn't provoke AoO).
Combat Healer 3/day (Quicken a 'Cure' spell, but it costs two spell slots instead of one).
LV 01, 14 AC.
LV 02, 18 AC.
WIS/CHA Headbands are an ideal item.
Feat at LV 05: Divine Protection (Advanced Class Guide) adds CHA modifier to Saving Throws.
| Ualaa |
Nymph (Rare Race, so net 0-point buy)
Low-Light Vision
Speed 30 ft., Swim 20 ft.
Skills 6+INT
HD: D6
Casts spells (no other class features, as a Druid equal to one level below her Racial Hit Dice; Druid levels will combine with this).
LV 01 Base Stats:
STR 10, DEX 12, CON 12, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 14
Unearthly Grace (CHA to Saves (Racial Bonus) and to AC (Deflection Bonus)).
>> Could modify these slightly, as long as it is a 'Net Zero' adjustment... Up to '-3' to any stat, using those points to purchase higher values <<
LV 02:
STR 10, DEX 12, CON 12, INT 12, WIS 12, CHA 14
Wild Empathy (As a Druid)
Spellcasting (no other class features) as a Level 1 Druid.
LV 03:
STR 10, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 12, CHA 16
Stunning Glance (Standard Action, Fort Save, DC is CHA based)
Spellcasting (no other class features) as a Level 2 Druid.
LV 04:
STR 10, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 14, CHA 16
DR 5/Cold Iron
Spellcasting (no other class features) as a Level 3 Druid.
LV 05:
STR 10, DEX 16, CON 16, INT 14, WIS 14, CHA 16
Spellcasting (no other class features) as a Level 4 Druid.
LV 06:
STR 10, DEX 16, CON 16, INT 16, WIS 16, CHA 20
Inspiration (Can grant a boon to another... +4 WILL Saves/Perform Checks... more benefits to a BARD).
Spellcasting (no other class features) as a Level 5 Druid.
LV 07:
STR 10, DEX 18, CON 18, INT 16, WIS 16, CHA 20
Racial Spells (1/Day: Dimension Door)
Spellcasting (no other class features) as a Level 6 Druid.
LV 08:
STR 10, DEX 20, CON 18, INT 16, WIS 16, CHA 24
Blinding Beauty, DR 10/Cold Iron.
Spellcasting (no other class features) as a Level 7 Druid.
LV...CLASS A... CLASS B......... BAB... FORT.. REF ... WILL ... HD
01.... Nymph | Nymph 01 ...... 00.50 .. +00 .. +02 .. +02 .... 1D4+2 = 6
02.... Nymph | Nymph 02 ...... 01.00 .. +00 .. +03 .. +03 .... 1D4+2 = 6
03.... Nymph | Nymph 03 ...... 01.50 .. +01 .. +03 .. +03 .... 1D4+2
04.... Nymph | Nymph 04 ...... 02.00 .. +01 .. +04 .. +04 .... 1D4+2
05.... Nymph | Nymph 05 ...... 02.50 .. +01 .. +04 .. +04 .... 1D4+2
06.... Nymph | Nymph 06 ...... 03.00 .. +02 .. +05 .. +05 .... 1D4+2
07.... Nymph | Nymph 07 ...... 03.50 .. +02 .. +05 .. +05 .... 1D4+2
08.... Nymph | Nymph 08 ...... 04.00 .. +02 .. +06 .. +06 .... 1D4+2
09.. Druid 01 | Monk 01 ........ 04.75 .. +03 .. +06 .. +06 ..... 1D4+4
10.. Druid 02 | Monk 02 ........ 05.25 .. +03 .. +07 .. +07 ..... 1D4+4
11.. Druid 03 | Fighter 01 ...... 06.25 .. +04 .. +07 .. +07 ..... 1D4+6
12.. Druid 04 | Duelist 01 ...... 07.25 .. +04 .. +07 .. +08 ..... 1D4+6
13.. Druid 05 | Duelist 02 ...... 08.25 .. +05 .. +08 .. +08 ..... 1D4+6
14.. Druid 06 | Duelist 03 ...... 09.25 .. +05 .. +08 .. +09 ..... 1D4+6
15.. Druid 07 | Duelist 04 ...... 10.25 .. +06 .. +09 .. +09 ..... 1D4+6
16.. Druid 08 | Duelist 05 ...... 11.25 .. +06 .. +09 .. +10 ..... 1D4+6
17.. Druid 09 | Fighter 02 ...... 12.25 .. +07 .. +10 .. +10 ..... 1D4+6
18.. Druid 10 | Fighter 03 ...... 13.25 .. +07 .. +10 .. +11 ..... 1D4+6
19.. Druid 11 | Fighter 04 ...... 14.25 .. +08 .. +10 .. +11 ..... 1D4+6
20.. Druid 12 | Fighter 05 ...... 15.25 .. +08 .. +11 .. +12 ..... 1D4+6
Equivalent BAB to a Priest Class, at 20th.
Base Saves are comparable to base Druid Saves (12/06/12 = +30 total) and (08/11/12 = +31 total); Nymph adds at least +7 CHA modifier to each SAVE.
Stronger REFLEX save, with Evasion.
Spellcasting as a Level 19 Druid, but only has the class features of a Druid 12.
Monk adds:
WISDOM to AC, Evasion, Deflect Arrows/Improved Grapple (bonus feats).
Strong REFLEX saves.
Fighter adds:
Weapon Training (Light Blades), and three bonus combat feats.
Full BAB, D10 HD.
Duelist adds:
INTELLIGENCE to AC (Limited to the lesser of: Duelist Level & INT modifier).
Precise Strike (+1 Damage per Duelist Level)
Improved Reactions (+2 Initiative)
Grace (+2 REFLEX Saves)
Enhanced Mobility (+4 to the Mobility Feat, total +8)
Parry & Riposte
Survivability should be decent... with:
DEX, INT, WIS, and CHA to AC.
CON/CHA to FORT Saves, DEX/CHA to REF Saves (with Evasion), and WIS/CHA to WILL Saves.
The Duelist Parry & Riposte feature.
Wildshape into a mobile form (Air Elementals once available), for superior battlefield mobility including +8 to AC for AoO provoked by movement (from Mobility and Enhanced Mobility).
Will Mythic - 'Cure Light Wounds' (2D8+ x (2/LV, max +10))in LV 1 and LV 2 slots be enough healing, compared to a regular healer using Cure Light Wounds in level 1 slots and Cure Moderate Wounds in level 2 slots?
| Ualaa |
How nasty could the combination of classes get, with Pathfinder Gestalt characters?
I'll likely have five players, each with their own character. Two of them are fairly new to the game (in the midst of their second 1st-20th campaign now), and three of them have 20+ years of gaming experience... and will optimize to various degrees of success.
One of the experienced players is leaning towards a 'Tank' role, built off of Oracle (Battle Mystery) | Paladin.
Another is leaning towards a Rogue | Soulknife build. Our current campaign has limited purchase options (the Market has a 10,000gp limit, and he would like to have whatever weapon he desires, not what can be bought). He is also toying around with Aegis | Soulknife, for a similar reason.
One of the newer players is thinking of going Inquisitor | Bard.
Nothing is set in stone... the builds could change between now and the start of the next campaign.
| kestral287 |
What I'm seeing off-hand:
-Natural attacks are at an even bigger advantage than normal. If I can run two claws and a bite, I'm forever superior in attack volume.
-Similarly, extra attacks via Haste and similar are worth their weight in gold.
-One rank in mythic is enough to give spellcasters very awesome capabilities.
-While I can see banning the Theurge (to a point at least), hits on stuff like the Eldritch Knight doesn't... really do anything. The EK is actually one of the more useless Gestalt classes. If I want to run a martial character who can also sling spells... I'm going to run a Magus. Then I'm either going to backline it with a Wizard (see below) for ninth-level casting or a Slayer for full BAB and more combat tricks.
-I don't know your players, but they're unlikely to appreciate your heal-bot. I know I certainly wouldn't. The GMPCs I've worked with have all been party members, not a+@~!$&s who were tagging along. Unless your players are used to this sort of thing, expect the party heal-bot to rapidly become the party disposable meat shield and someone to just throw some points into UMD.
-You complicated fractional saves waaaay more than they needed to be. Unless your group is all cool with that kind of math, expect somebody to get confused very fast.
Off-hand, the two characters I would most consider:
-Alchemist/Barbarian with a natural attack specialization. Alch can go Vivisectionist/Beastmorph; Barbarian will probably go Invulnerable Rager but has some options. For once the Barbarian isn't locked into Beast Totem since the Alchemist can supply Pounce. Nets full BAB, good Fort/Ref saves and good support for Will via Rage Powers. Feral Mutagen + Lesser Fiend Totem leads to a four-natural-attack sequence; later on a pair of Vestigial Arms and Lesser Dragon Blood will up that to six. Alternate plan would be to stick with the standard Beast Totem line, freeing up more room from Beastmorph to grab useful abilities and whatever Blood Rage Power line is desired. Only five natural attacks once two Vestigial Arms are in play (level six, barring feats), but that's still better than what he'd get at any point in the game with a weapon.
This build has excellent offensive power (large natural attack sequences + Sneak Attack and can self-buff with, among others, Invisibility), solid defenses, insane stats (25 point buy + Human + rage + mutagen? 28 Strength at level one? Yes please), and decent utility (Beastmorph abilities plus the standard Alchemist list plus lots of combat utility from rage powers). A level of Oracle can be thrown in at level 9 for Rage-Cycling, or one of the other options for that could be utilized.
Mythic would probably take Champion or Trickster (Fleet Charge) + Mythic Power Attack + I'd have to ponder on the path ability. With Beastmorph providing Flight speeds, Fleet Charge + Pounce lets you flit all over the battlefield threatening whoever needs threatening.
-Magus (Kensai)/Wizard (or Witch, but I like Wizards better). The Magus' standard tactics don't approve of the 18-20 cap on crit ranges, but screw "standard tactics", this is gestalt. Take Broad Study at 6th and unleash your Wizardly Doom on the lesser mortals. 3/4ths BAB, 9th level casting and sixth level casting, good Fort/Will saves, and an insane action economy (they can make use of their swift action every round, full attack, and cast spells).
Mythic is interesting. Archmage is a given, but feats are kind of a challenge here. So are Path Abilities, because there are a lot of options. If you're using the FAQ'd Wild Arcana, take Arcane Surge; if not take Wild Arcana and enjoy the ridiculousness. Depending on build choices, Coupled Arcana, Speedy Summons, and Enduring Armor are all valid path abilities-- among others, really.
Some other options: Oracle/Sorcerer (or Cleric/Empyreal Sorcerer) provide the super-spell-slinger roll. Paladin/Oracle gives a very solid divine caster that will not die, ever, and has no complaints about mixing it up like a Fighter. Warpriest/Magus doesn't have great stat synergy and is only sixth level casting on two fronts, but it will be throwing out two spells per round as a matter of routine. Even the stat situation is solvable (personally I'd get 16 Int and leave it there aside from items; focus the Magus end on buffing spells. Pour spare points into Wis for more Fervor uses. Have a character who can be ambushed anywhere and still just shrug and buff himself to the nines). Slayer or Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade if necessary) can merge nicely into a Wizard or Sorcerer for the classic gish build, but skipping Magus' Spell Combat is hard to justify there.
But by far the most terrifying build I can figure immediately is (Master) Summoner/Sorcerer. If possible, two levels in Paladin would make this setup even more ridiculous, but this character could flood the world in summons while packing a ridiculous array of high-level spells. A martial Summoner could also be nasty; the other side can dip Paladin 2 for Cha-to-saves, Oracle 1 for Cha-to-AC, Swashbuckler 1 for panache and defensive tricks, or just run straight Summoner/Bloodrager to mix it up alongside the summons/Eidolon. A Sorcerer could use the same dips but a well-played Summoner is worse to face.
| Avoron |
The class combination that jumps out at me here is Druid/Barbarian. Of course, I would love to play one of those in any gestalt game, but here particularly this can make your delicate balancing fall apart.
Full BAB, d12 hit dice, 9th level spells, Wild Shape, Rage, Domain/Animal Companion, Rage Powers, etc.
Plus the simple glory of a level 8 character pouncing with Bite/Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw/Gore/Rake/Rake. Every turn.
Or a level 11 character Vital Striking for 384 damage, before any modifiers. Every turn.
| Nyaa |
Too long, read diagonally.
If psionics is allowed, Vitalist is the only choice for healer.
If one of players want to tank, you should allow Path of War.
| Vritra |
I'd say removing the dual advancement classes are fine (Mystic Theurge, Cerebremancer) so long as they're both for spellcasting. Removing stuff like Eldritch Knight is pretty mediocre.
As well, removing options for taking two Prestige Classes at once is also poor. Nothing jumps out at me as being terrible, especially once you've removed the Mystic Theurge and co.
| Ualaa |
It sounds like the build options given, have a potential as being too generous for a player who is going to put an effort into optimization.
I don't mind stronger characters, and have a lot of experience with very high end epic games. What I do mind is a large disparity in power between two characters.
Since I cannot be sure all of the players will take less optimal choices, to end up in line with each other, I can reduce the overall power of the options.
Do you like any of these?
Point-Buy
a) Base Races 20-point buy; Uncommon Races 15-point buy; Other Races no stat adjustments.
b) Base Races 15-point buy; Uncommon Races 10-point buy; Other Races no stat adjustments.
c) Impose a maximum initial stat (after Racial Adjustments) of 18?
d) Impose a maximum initial stat (after Racial Adjustments) of 16?
Mythic
e) Remove Mythic.
f) Cap the players at 0 Mythic Points, so they essentially either get one ability and one feat, or use their ability for 'Extra Mythic Feat' and gain two Mythic Feats.
g) Remove the extra actions, such as Arcane Surge/Mage Strike/Wild Arcana and Distant Barrage/Fleet Charge/Sudden Attack etc.
Vritra
The 'no' dual-classes, was straight out of Unearthed Arcana. Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster doesn't really jump out at me as overly strong, but someone going Mystic Theurge to advance two casting classes at once, and possibly Cerebremancer to advance two more, or at least have that potential. In a Gestalt game, you basically want two classes in their entirety, not three or more with the combination classes.
I'll amend the build options, to specify the prohibition applies to dual advancement of caster classes.
Nyaa
I don't mind Path of War, per se. I liked the Book of Nine Swords, for the 3.5 edition of the game. If a player wants to use it, it just comes down to a few bucks for a physical copy of the book in our gaming room; Hero Lab already has the option to allow the Path of War.
I'll check out the Vitalist, thanks for the suggestion.
Kestral287
We've played a couple of campaigns (one complete, and one in progress) with the Iterative Attack change. Instead of +6/+1, a character has +4/+4, then instead of +11/+6/+1 a character has +10/+10, and instead of eventually reaching +16/+11/+6/+1 the character plateaus at +16/+16. In practice, the third and fourth hit seem to be a formality that basically never land unless a 20 is scored.
Overall damage is pretty much the same, compared with not changing the BAB/Iterative Attack system, but the speed of combat has increased drastically.
Natural Attacks aren't based off of Iterative Attacks, so that can potentially 'Game' the system, as might be the case with the 'Two-Weapon Fighting' chain.
I don't really mind the Two-Weapon Fighting chain, as it is a gain for an investment of feats, and the extra attacks loose their luster as they go with increasing penalties.
The fractional saves, is basically on a spread sheet... by making it fractions (three decimal places, would work as well), it advances properly even if a player is going to make a convoluted build with Slow-Slow-Fast-Slow-Fast-Fast-Slow-Slow-Slow-Fast-Slow Fortitude Saves.
On the player end/character sheet end, we have a single whole number for each saving throw.
Kestral287/Avoron
I don't really see a good option to cap natural attacks, as they're generally weaker (one to one) than having a property on a weapon...
Would capping natural attacks at three be balanced against swinging a sword twice? The sword can be Flaming or Holy, for extra damage while an Amulet of Mighty Fists is just going to equal the enhancement bonus to attack rolls.
Vital Strike seems like a sub-par option for the most part, compared to a full-attack action, and likely only a good choice when you need to move more than a 5-ft. adjustment. However, with iterative attacks capping at two swings (with bonuses to damage twice) vs two, three or four sets of damage-dice (with bonuses once, in each case), at what point does it balance out?
I could take the literal 'Trailblazer' weapon damage cap of 3D8 (as opposed to 3D8 for a single swing), and set that as an absolute maximum final roll, with any amount of Vital Strike... so even Vital Strike/Improved Vital Strike/Greater Vital Strike (with a Greatsword) is 3D8; alternatively, we could ban Improved/Greater Vital Strike, to bring the two sets of damage dice in line with two attack rolls.
Trailblazer suggests adding 'Dead Weight' XP to each encounter budget, to offset Companions/Summoned Creatures, if those become an issue.
Basically, use 8 Trolls instead of 6, but only award experience for the 6 Trolls.
If a player (or players) really want an Eidolon, an Animal Companion, and six summoned creatures... I can as easily use 12 Trolls and 8 Ogres, in the above encounter (still only worth the 6 Trolls of experience). I'd tend to think the group would convince the player that playing nine (including their character) creatures isn't fair to everyone else in terms of time, especially if I explain the extra stuff isn't worth anything to the party.
An alternative would be for a companion/summoned creature to use a Buff Slot. That limits how many can be active at once, while allowing for additional summons and/or buffs, as a character gains levels. The player then has to choose whether they want Fly / Mage Armor / Resist Energy or Summon A / Summon B / Fly or Summon A / Companion B / Resist Energy.
| kestral287 |
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On optimization: My honest opinion?
At this point, you're trying too hard, and in doing so creating problems where they don't exist normally. In particular, you're literally creating optimization gaps that didn't exist before.
For example, the differing point buys for different races? Who do you think is more likely to pick the statistically sub-par option, the player picking things because they're cool or the player who's sitting down with a spreadsheet before the game to work their character out? Now, don't get me wrong: this is true of every game. But by doing things like spreading the point-buy you both complicate the system and twist the options in a way that the diehard optimizer is likely to pick up on almost immediately but the more casual builder won't.
This talk of "buff slots" and punishing a character for bringing Fluffles the Tiger... same thing. Casual player might think it's worth it to have their cool pet, optimizer is going to realize that you are essentially removing the class feature from the game and pick something else.
On iterative attacks: We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, but given that my classes of preference tend to have ways to augment accuracy or ignore large portions of enemy AC I may be an outlier.
On Mythic: If you're going to disallow Mythic Power or disallow path abilities, just pull mythic and be done with it. Again, you're complicating the system in favor of the optimizer (who's going to look down the list of useful Mythic Feats, grab Mythic Vital Strike, and become hilarious-- not necessarily the case for the other guy).
On Vital Strike: Money is Avoron didn't read the 3D8 limit. That destroys the Conquerer Ooze and related builds. Vital Strike is only going to be balls-out insane if you allow Mythic.
On Natural Attacks: Frankly? Capping things sounds like a terrible idea. I expect this:
Player: "So my Alchemist, no matter how many arms he grows and has claws on, can only have three natural attacks. That's a law of the world?"
GM: "Correct."
Player, now fighting a gargoyle: "This gargoyle is breaking the rules that you established for this world. Why does it get to that and my Alchemist can't?"
GM: "... Because Balance".
So either your random monsters don't follow the rules of your world or your players are entirely aware that your rules are arbitrary attempts to enforce balance. This dismantles immersion pretty handily.
Also, honestly capping just swings everything the other direction. The Barbarian/Alchemist build probably still works if only because by the time its raw weaponry is outclassed (which won't be by far, honestly) it can consistently Sneak Attack with ease... but you're telling an optimizer "find a way to force more cheese out of natural attacks or go back to the already-powerful greatsword".
In my experience as a person who enjoys breaking games for the sake of breaking games (and then never running those characters because I like my GMs too much to employ the Invincible Space Jellyfish on them, but hey), telling somebody "you can do X, but with limit Y" is a challenge to break things with Limit Y. And directly challenging an optimizer is a terrible idea, it's what we live on.
On mixed-classes: Theurge is badass enough in gestalt to disallow (for s&@!s and grins, I built a rather amusing Cha-monster at lunch today), but Eldritch Knight? I can't think of a reason why I would ever want to put EK in a gestalt build, and I have actually tried to do just that for a character before. Consider the implications of the rule and figure out if it's actually needed. Here it's self-evident that for EK it is not, and honestly the same is true of most prestige classes.
On saves: while you can punch that into a spreadsheet and get the correct result, it's an extremely overly complex way to go about it. Assuming you're using Excel (or a spreadsheet that accepts the same formulas), try this:
Good save: =2+Rounddown(level/2,0)
Bad save: =Rounddown(level/3,0)
Expressed simply, "your good save is two plus your level divided by two, rounded down. Your bad save is your level divided by three, rounded down)". This provides the exact same result and is written in a way that the layman can easily understand it.
If somebody multiclasses:
Save: =2+Rounddown(LevelG/2+LevelB/3,0)
Where LevelG is levels with a good save and LevelB is levels with a bad save.
1: Oracle 1/Sorcerer 1
2: Oracle 2/Sorcerer 2
3: Oracle 3/Sorcerer 3
4: Oracle 4/Sorcerer 4
5: Mystic Theurge 1/Paladin 1
6: Mystic Theurge 2/Paladin 2
7: Mystic Theurge 3/Daring Champion (or Swashbuckler, if preferred) 1
8: Mystic Theurge 4/Paladin or DC (as preferences dictate)
9: Mystic Theurge 5/Paladin or DC (as preferences dictate)
10: Mystic Theurge 6/Paladin or DC (as preferences dictate)
11: Mystic Theurge 7/Paladin or DC (as preferences dictate)
12: Mystic Theurge 8/Paladin or DC (as preferences dictate)
13: Mystic Theurge 9/Paladin or DC (as preferences dictate)
14: Mystic Theurge 10/Paladin or DC (as preferences dictate)
15: Oracle 5/Sorcerer 5
16: Oracle 6/Sorcerer 6
17: Oracle 7/Sorcerer 7
18: Oracle 8/Sorcerer 8
19: Oracle 9/Sorcerer 9
20: Oracle 10/Sorcerer 10
BAB comes out to 17, 9th level arcane and divine spells with CL20, Cha to AC (replacing Dex), saves, and as a panache pool with the Parry & Riposte deed. Cha mod should get to a +12, so figure on an AC of 44 (10+12 Cha +5 Amulet +5 Ring +6 Mithril Buckler +6 Haramaki), Will save will be a 24+Wis mod, Fort a 22+Con, Ref probably only an 18+Dex. Going Swashbuckler brings down the Fort and up the Ref. All in all, this comes out to a build that can handle pretty much any situation without too much difficulty, flowing between arcane casting, divine casting, and melee combat with relative ease. This is a good reason to disallow a 'combination' prestige class. When you can figure out a way to do something this nasty with Eldritch Knight that you can't do otherwise, yeah, banning it becomes an option... but I'd bet money anything you can do with an EK you can do better with something else.
| Ualaa |
The reasoning for different point-buys is differing power levels of the races.
A base (PHB) race (or Pathfinder Core Book), like a Human, Elf, Dwarf or whatever is going to have a net +2 to their stats. That can be +2 to a single stat or +2 to a pair of stats, but -2 to a single stat.
There is a lot of feat support for the base races, if you want to be better at being an Elf, or rather an aspect of being an Elf.
The Uncommon races options can get a +4 to a key stat, or have more wild racial options. From a number crunching point of view, the Oracle had better stats as an Uncommon Race (an Aasimar, with alternate racial features... +4 CHA and +2 WIS) with a 20-point buy than as any of the 25-point buy races. The 25-point races however would have been close enough on the stats, and had more options for alternate racial features and for their race/class combination granting different Favored Class bonuses (from the Advanced Player's Guide), and might have been a more optimal choice.
But 20-points for the uncommon race and 25-points for the traditional race seemed like it would be close enough for balance. Neither being that much better than the other; so players can go with whatever theme or idea better fits their character concept.
The monster racial classes (Savage Species style) make things a little more complicated. From previous experience in our last Gestalt game (two campaigns ago), anyone who didn't take a monster race as one side of their build (with a class on the other side) was very much behind the power curve of anyone who did, and any race that was even only slightly a good choice for their class combination upped the power level dramatically.
In non-Gestalt games, no one has wanted to play the monster racial classes, they were/are too far behind just playing a base race with a normal class.
The balance this campaign, is that a monster class (like Quickling, Nymph, Ghaele, etc) occupies both sides of the build, until it is complete. I'm not sure if that is too harsh, but with it only taking one side of the build makes it far too strong.
One of my players absolutely loves the idea of playing a monstrous race; he has tried a Minotaur Barbarian/Fighter, and a Pixie Wizard so far, and has spent a lot of time browsing the Monstrous Racial writeups for this upcoming campaign.
The monster races can give some really wicked statistical adjustments, but giving up two classes for however many levels might be a decent balance point. After this campaign has played out, I'll know if that's the case or not.
The objective of course is to reach a point where the monster racial advancement isn't an obviously superior choice almost all of the time, yet is not a horrible one either... so any given player can pick the "cooler" or "more interesting" option, and in theory be relatively balanced (at least in the same ball-park) against a straight human, elf or half-orc.
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Buff Slots were an idea from Trailblazer that we have really liked for this campaign.
In the past, a very low level group... or a triumvirate of NPC casters, in a swamp encounter from 'War of the Burning Sky', combined Wizard, Druid and Cleric buffs to become far harder to 'hit' than their level would indicate.
Armor of Faith (Deflection Bonus), Barkskin (Enhancement to Natural Armor), (Mage Armor (Armor Bonus), Shield (Shield Bonus), and other buffs can absolutely destroy balance when combined.
With two initial 'Buff Slots', a player has to choose which spells they want at a given time. At fifth level they gain a third buff slot, at tenth level a fourth buff slot... our group is currently 14th, so we haven't unlocked the fifth buff slot yet.
Balance has been good so far, and it's a lot easier to track a finite number of buffs at any point. NPC casters have been limited to buff slots as well, and that hasn't really impacted play.
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I don't want to penalize a class that has a pet as their class feature, such as an Eidolon, Paladin Mount, or Animal Companion.
That said, I also don't want someone to run around with an Eidolon, an Animal Companion, and to summon monsters/summon nature's ally for each of the first six rounds every combat.
I could go with the first class feature Animal Companion, Eidolon, Familiar, or Mount does not count as a buff slot, but each additional extra creature including summons occupies a buff slot.
Would that be a fair compromise, to limit the craziness of a build focusing on summons without overly penalizing a class which assumes fluffy is part of the action?
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If Mythic has the potential to break the game entirely, even at a very low mythic rank, it might be best to not offer that for this campaign.
Gestalt is already a powerful option, with a lot of potential combinations or interactions of class features.
Feedback is really appreciated, thank you.
| kestral287 |
On Races: Frankly, uncommon is not inherently more powerful than common. There's no Uncommon race that can use a trait to get +2 to all of their saves (Half Orc using Fate's Favored), there's no Uncommon race that gets the incredibly-useful bonus feat (Human), and there's no uncommon race packing four SLAs (Gnome).
Now, to be sure, this is not a universal truth. I can't think of many reasons why I would run an Elf over a Tiefling. Aasimar are pretty awesome. But I would love to hear an argument for how a Kobold is more powerful than a Human.
I understand the theory of what you're going for, but if you're really insistent on making use of this (and frankly I don't think you should be), then you need to arrange them by real power levels rather than an arbitrary and largely-meaningless distinction. Doing it by racial points would make more sense, even as horribly flawed as those are. Racial points even have built-in distinctions of "Standard" "Advanced" and "Monstrous".
An alternate strategy, that my GM made use of, was simply handing everybody the same amount of racial points to play with to customize their races. Everybody came out with something at least relatively close to what they started with (my Tiefling is still a native outsider, still has Fiendish Resistance, and still has a Prehensile Tail, but now she also has natural armor and spell resistance and a different racial stat spread), but we also came out really close to each other in power. Admittedly, the optimizer of the group (me) did happily help when the others came to me and asked "what the hell should I do with these things". Your group dynamics may be different from mine and this may not help, but there it is.
Personally I think I would just veto the monstrous races in their entirety were I to run a game (unless everybody is playing them, then go for it), but that's me just cutting the knot on that one.
Buff Slots: This is something you're going to have to figure out on your own (or more accurately, with the help of people who are not me) because it's so alien to any way that I play and creates incentives that are so against how I'd want to play that I can't really fathom it. I will say that the 'dead weight' exp thing is a terrible strategy because you are literally removing class features and even whole player turns from consideration, but beyond that... *shrug*
Mythic: I'm actually in a Mythic-and-gestalt game right now (the same one has the above bit about racial points, actually). Can we do some pretty crazy stuff? Yeah, my not-proficient-in-any-armors character is the party tank, and eventually she can throw out six spells per round if she really doesn't mind burning through resources (but that requires a particular 3.5 spell in addition to Mythic, so mreh), and move + full attack isn't even hard anymore. That is something you have to compensate for, just as you have to compensate for Gestalt, but it is doable. The problem is that imposing arbitrary limitations generally affects the optimizer and casual builder equally (for example, neither one has access to mythic power), but the optimizer is far more likely to find something powerful that they can do with a mythic tier without spending Mythic Power.
| Shiroi |
I feel like the house rules in play here are the key components. You use a system that vastly, vastly nerfs full BAB by limiting it to two attacks. Granted, both at full BAB, but still, only two attacks normally. Thus, almost any class mixed with a Monk of Many Styles gives you Flurry (way more attacks than anyone else will ever normally get) and more/better attacks of opportunity. While I really just happen to like the MoMS builds, in your case I feel the houserules make everything that makes the moms good, even better. The "risky, might not get any AoO" is now very nicely ignored by the "guaranteed, gets more attacks in a full attack action".
This is very good for you. Now drop in barbarian, fighter, or magus for your flavor of adding damage or CMB or magic, and you can really make this a nasty character in your homebrew. I'd even consider MoMS/Wizard, and focusing on spells with a range of personal. Those spells are designed to make a Wizard decent for combat if they have to be... they aren't balanced around also being the front line hitter guy before you use them.
Consistent damage from more attacks per round, great saves, good AC, random extra lol damage from AoO, and massive utility spell possibilities. And you can craft the only craftable items in the game.
| kestral287 |
Incidentally, Master of Many Styles does not get flurry.
Master of Many Styles 2/Whatever Class 18//Sacred Fist 20.
Flurry, 6th level Divine casting, Pummeling Charge at 2nd, etc. Probably take a Cleric or Empyreal Sorcerer with those open eighteen levels, slot in Magical Knack. You're a bit behind in your full casting progression, but given that you got Pounce at level 2 I doubt you're complaining.
That said, I would assume (hope) that Flurry was modified just as the BAB thing was.
| Shiroi |
Ouch. I've only ever one level dipped to get the dual styles, so flurry was never a concern. It's been a minute. Still, mixed with a few other things it can still be done. Or drop the MoMS and use Four Winds or even base monk. I like the extra styles but the flurry feels more useful to you. Given the huge diversity of combat and traps in Rappan Athuk, Rogue builds with a major in finding and disabling traps both magic and physical would be useful, so perhaps Rogue/Investigator?
Few people routinely want to be left out of the combat scene, but Rappan Athuk has traps as nasty as the monsters.