So I know it has been shot down before but I really want to find a way to make a Gnome rogue or slayer who can trip every one up then start sneak attacking them with a flying talon (I want it to be gnome for RP purposes). I know the -2 Str will give me 1 less to my trip but since I am using a weapon and get a +1 to attack, wouldn't that negate the -1 to cmb from being small? I have tried to google this to see if any one else has brought this up but found nothing on the subject.
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Gnomes get a +1 on attack rolls, but a -1 on their CMB for being small. So the +1 to hit for being Small doesn't apply to trip attempts, because for this purpose, those aren't attack rolls, they're combat maneuver checks. So as a gnome, you'll have a total of -2 to trip: -1 from the STR penalty and -1 from being small. The +2 you get for using a flying talon will offset this. Not optimized, but still seems workable. I'd recommend slayer over rogue for this, since you'll need your full BAB.
The real problem is, tripping somebody doesn't leave them flat-footed, so you won't be able to sneak attack targets just because they're prone-- you still need to flank or deny them their DEX bonus some other way.
Yea I was leaning towards slayer for the same reasons. But wouldn't the +1 to attack come into play since I am using a weapon to perform the maneuver, it would be similar to tripping some one when I have weapon finesse, or am using a +3 weapon. The dex would be used in place of my strength and I would get a +3 to trip from my weapon because they are modifiers that apply to the weapon...
I was thinking of tripping everything, disarming them as they stand then just getting into flanking positions with other players while trying to use AoO to manage what ever one I am not currently flanking....
Here is a link to support what I am saying about what ever applies to my weapon would also apply to my trip...
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcom
more specifically the bit about:
Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.
Gnomes get a +1 on attack rolls, but a -1 on their CMB for being small. So the +1 to hit for being Small doesn't apply to trip attempts, because for this purpose, those aren't attack rolls, they're combat maneuver checks.
Incorrect. If you're making a Trip (or Sunder, or Disarm) attempt with a weapon, you can use your weapon attack bonus, and all other relevant things that apply.
So, for example, if you trip someone with a whip, and are using Weapon Finesse, you use your weapon attack roll, and Dex modifier, not Str.
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Gnomes get a +1 on attack rolls, but a -1 on their CMB for being small. So the +1 to hit for being Small doesn't apply to trip attempts, because for this purpose, those aren't attack rolls, they're combat maneuver checks.Incorrect. If you're making a Trip (or Sunder, or Disarm) attempt with a weapon, you can use your weapon attack bonus, and all other relevant things that apply.
So, for example, if you trip someone with a whip, and are using Weapon Finesse, you use your weapon attack roll, and Dex modifier, not Str.
That whole disarm/sunder/trip thing only applies to to weapon-specific stuff, which the +1 size bonus to attack rolls is not.
More generally, remember: even though combat maneuvers are a kind of attack roll, they don't carry with them all the normal rules of attack rolls. Among the differences is that combat maneuvers and "normal" attacks start with two completely separate big-font formulas in the Combat chapter. The base formula for CMB includes the "special size modifier" but not the ordinary size mod listed for non-maneuver attacks.
Riiight, forgot it was a Size bonus.
I don't play puny baby races. =p
Well, that't a bummer.... I think I can actually still make this work. The only thing I got going against me would be -2 Str and -1 cmb but that would be negated by the Flying Talon's +2....
Any idea or suggestions on how to make it work? So far I am thinking of high dex and weapon finesse, Improved/Greater trip, Flying Talon, Weapon Focus, Gauntlets of Skilled Maneuver (Trip), if I remember right there is an Ioun stone that will give me a +1 cmb, not sure though....
Oh and I also would take excitable, improved initiative and have a high dex so that I can usually go first (or at least close to it) and catch them flat footed on that first round....
Rynjin: I don't usually play small races, but I had a character idea awhile back and really want to play it... I am gonna be cranking in ranks into comedy, oratory and bluff so that I can walk into a bar and make some some bs story about how I slayed a giant troll in the middle of an orc battle single handed and make people believe it. Essentially I want him to be a self centered, larger than life pirate who is very charismatic and kind of a man whore, but only to medium sized women.... or larger... lol
And Bob I wanted the Flying Talon because it gives +2 to trip and disarm, both combat maneuvers I want to use and also has reach....
Using a weapon you can Finesse will give you a larger bonus in the long run.
Use a Whip and attack at 15 feet with Trip and Disarm. Drop the Feats on it if you want to also attack with it, or simply use it for those maneuvers and swing a Dagger or something the rest of the time.
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I second using a whip. Once you get Improved Whip Mastery, you can flank with the whip and sneak attack all you want. Splash a few levels of fighter in if you need more bonus feats.
Also, best character concept I've heard in a long time. ;-) I almost want to say take a few levels of bard-- the loss of BAB will hurt, but you seem to be playing him like a bard anyway, and you'll get whip proficiency that way plus a few decent spells.
Thanks Silent! Yea bard would be nice, maybe a 2 level dip, I like the Versatile Performance... Whip could be kind of cool, especially if all 3 feats are taken... alot of fun could be had with that...
Combat maneuvers are attacks, so the +1 counts. Read the book. Well, I mean it's arguable anyways. Probably not RAI though.
Weapon finesse takes care of that for me so long as I trip with a weapon Dannorn. Yea that is where my confusion was as well Ciaran.
Combat maneuvers are attacks, so the +1 counts. Read the book. Well, I mean it's arguable anyways. Probably not RAI though.
That is partially correct. Combat maneuves are attacks, but normal attacks, and combat maneuver checks do not get the same size bonuses to attacks. They get the opposite. As an example a large creature gets a -1 to attack because it is large, but it gets a +1 for CMB checks because of its size. Basically your size will be boon for attacks(weapon based) and a penalty for combat maneuvers and vice versa depending on your size category.
That is why the combat maneuver rules have a "special" size modifier, because it takes the place of the normal one.
