In my next campaign the players will be angels who have come down to Earth to solve a plot to bring about the apocalypse and kick some ass. Righteously.
They will all play paladin gestalt characters (any archetype), but my only niggle is the extent of the paladin side. Keeping the BAB, saves, HD and proficiencies would probably encourage full spellcasters and mean fighters and other full-BAB class would be far less attractive, while I'd like to give every other class even worth, if you like. My solution was to keep pally class skills and (obviously) class features, but the other aspects decided solely by the other side of the gestalt. So a wizard/paladin would have d6 hit die, half BAB etc, as well as the features from both classes.
Do you feel this way would work, or is there another way to give every class even (as much as possible, anyway) worth while gestalting with a paladin?
It's generally optimal in gestalt to do a tough martial class and a full caster class, to maximize versatility.
The main question is PB, as much of the Paladin's class abilities depend on Charisma. I'd expect to see Bards and Sorcs.
I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work.
Basically just having regular classes with a the bonus of getting class features would make fairly powerful characters, but not quite as powerful as gestalt.
If you give the 'Angel race' a CHR bonus of +2, but limit the point buy for CHR to be a max of 16 (18 with the bonus) it would also support diverse character classes.
Just gestalt or don't. They are already forced to have one side of their gestalt being paladin, just let them do whatever they want. Unless you are worried about optimization from your group for some reason.
This would actually be my response.
You want to balance the party? Give them a villain that wakes them individually at night. S/he doesn't appear threatening, but provides temptation. S/he leaves gifts of the most innocuous nature. Maybe even a magic item that would solve the next encounter. City ending dragon? Poof. Gone. Sure, the battle would be hard, but ultimately won.
And the offers. Power, money, companionship, an even higher purpose.
They have a powerful compulsion placed upon them to not tell the others, just to consider it. Watch them look at each other, considering. Watching. Trust turning to distrust.
Until one falls.
And then the next one falls.
Until they are no longer Paladins.
Thanks for taking the time to answer, everyone.
Cheers, Dave, that's a good idea. I am having the angel race be aasimar, so bonus to CHA and WIS, with a couple of alterations. Darkvision will be replaced by the halo, because I want some cool, scary underground darkness scenes, and I am replacing the SLA with the skilled human racial trait.
Maybe I should have mentioned this, but they can also activate at-will, four giant glowing golden wings, which manifest along with their halo, granting a +4 bonus to STR, DEX, CON and CHA, giving perfect flying ability. The caveat is that this has to be used very, very carefully, because it's like a homing beacon to all the demons in a very wide vicinity, and the mortals are going to notice, and operations have to be kept secret. Maybe it's too high even with consequences for use, not too sure yet.
Calethos, that's a very, very cool idea, and one I'm definitely going to use. Only thing is I'm not sure if I'd have to devote too much time to a temptation story arc to balance it like that.
Brad, that's definitely something to think about, thank you.
Instead of gestalt paladins why not give everyone the half celestial template. That would seem more like angels than paladins. This would also allow a more diverse group. The way I see it the all the characters are going to be very similar. Most will be going for some CHA based caster of some sort, but will want good physical stats. I figure you will have a bard, oracle, sorcerer, and a summoner for the other class.
Instead of gestalt paladins why not give everyone the half celestial template. That would seem more like angels than paladins. This would also allow a more diverse group. The way I see it the all the characters are going to be very similar. Most will be going for some CHA based caster of some sort, but will want good physical stats. I figure you will have a bard, oracle, sorcerer, and a summoner for the other class.
Now I never would have thought of that. That is an insanely cool idea. If they were to receive three +4s and three +2s to their ability scores, what point buy would you suggest? I was originally going with 25, but that might be too strong. Though they're badass angles on a mission from God, I do /want/ them to feel incredibly strong.
If I did go with half-celestials, though, I'd get rid of the 6+INT skill points per level for fear of cheapening classes like ranger or investigator, and the darkvision ability for the reason listed above.
I would still do a 25 point buy, just make the enemies tougher. I usually like high point buys for my players because it allows me to pull out all the stops. Just let the players know that this will be a very deadly campaign. When creating the opponents use the same point buy you give the players.
Cool, cheers. I tend to enjoy making campaigns high-powered, too, seems easier to boost enemies than dumb them down, so to speak.
I think a lot of this will be based on roleplaying skills and investigation, so I can really make the combat epic when it comes down to it.
A premise such as this means mythic tiers can be added quite naturally, too, thinking about it, though I will be careful.
And Merry Christmas, everyone!
One observation.
If you go the original Paladin Gestalt idea, I would give thought to Paladin/ Cleric.
Sure, you get some cleric spells and features anyway. But you don't have to worry about spell failure at all.
And the half celestial- well the characters will be similar in that all there stats will be excellent.
You could consider giving the characters a choice of a few abilities, rather than just wings.
And again, instead of the [rather cool] tempter idea, you could have an ally. With excellent suggestions, but leads them off the path. I would be subtle, and not even have the ally evil, just neutral, cunning and with an agenda.
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I think stats are going to define what your characters can do. Since Aasimar have no racial penalties, and a bonus to your primary paladin attributes, I'd recommend going with 20, or even 15, point buy. This means that the way each character allocates their stats defines their capabilities. Wanna be a good spellcaster? You need to put more points into those attributes, which means you will naturally be less combat capable UNLESS you decide to spread yourself thin. It means spellcasters will be less jack-of-all-trades kinds of characters, but will still get the benefits of lay-on-hands and smite evil they want. If you really feel the need to force specialization, go down to 10 point buy.
My advice would be run with the Half-Celestial template idea - it gives them a bit more flexibility with their characters. I'd stick with 25-pt-buy - you can get some insane encounters out of that as a DM. I would also second the suggestion to allow the half of the gestalt to be Paladin/Inquisitor/Cleric/Warpriest or even Oracle plus whatever else they want - it will encourage creativity on their part, and you might not have to worry so much about everyone looking for CHA sync.
I think stats are going to define what your characters can do. Since Aasimar have no racial penalties, and a bonus to your primary paladin attributes, I'd recommend going with 20, or even 15, point buy. This means that the way each character allocates their stats defines their capabilities. Wanna be a good spellcaster? You need to put more points into those attributes, which means you will naturally be less combat capable UNLESS you decide to spread yourself thin. It means spellcasters will be less jack-of-all-trades kinds of characters, but will still get the benefits of lay-on-hands and smite evil they want. If you really feel the need to force specialization, go down to 10 point buy.
I get the impression that this campaign is supposed to be a high powered over the top campaign. These campaigns can be a lot of fun if done properly. Using a low point buy defeats the purpose of giving the extra powers. The GM will need to make sure the enemies are equally tough and not just use the standard CR recommendations. I would adjust all encounters by at least 2 CR minimum, by 11th level that should be around 4 CR. I would not recommend running such a campaign every time, but it makes an interesting change once in a while.
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I think stats are going to define what your characters can do. Since Aasimar have no racial penalties, and a bonus to your primary paladin attributes, I'd recommend going with 20, or even 15, point buy. This means that the way each character allocates their stats defines their capabilities. Wanna be a good spellcaster? You need to put more points into those attributes, which means you will naturally be less combat capable UNLESS you decide to spread yourself thin. It means spellcasters will be less jack-of-all-trades kinds of characters, but will still get the benefits of lay-on-hands and smite evil they want. If you really feel the need to force specialization, go down to 10 point buy.I get the impression that this campaign is supposed to be a high powered over the top campaign. These campaigns can be a lot of fun if done properly. Using a low point buy defeats the purpose of giving the extra powers. The GM will need to make sure the enemies are equally tough and not just use the standard CR recommendations. I would adjust all encounters by at least 2 CR minimum, by 11th level that should be around 4 CR. I would not recommend running such a campaign every time, but it makes an interesting change once in a while.
The reason I mentioned lowering the point buy is because the OP specifically mentioned characters being extremely powerful in every capacity. They will still be plenty powerful self-healing, smite spell sorcerers and skillful, durable bards, but by cutting back on ability scores you maintain high power while requiring that characters also specialize within their wide breadth of powers.
Well first of all I'm glad people are in support of a mad high-power campaign. I suppose their being angels from Heaven on Earth would mean they should be much stronger than the mortals around them. This campaign will most probably be full of new players, so I think I'll run a couple of 15 Point Buy modules to get them used to feeling "normal" so they understand the power they wield.
To stop the issue of stifling creativity and power gaming, I think I'll only tell the players of the gestalt aspect after they've made their characters with the template. I'll just advise a decent CHA for social challenges etc.
If the CR can increase by so much (which is gonna be AWESOME), should the character wealth by level increase accordingly, too?
Still contemplating the point buy, I'll make a few Xadin gestalts with different point buys, see how they add up.
Sounds like a very fun campaign! I doubt my table would go for it but I'd jump at a chance to play in this campaign. I hope you post a campaign journal somewhere. I'd like to follow along.
Wow, thanks, Lincoln, that means a lot! This won't be done for a year at least, so you can expect a few other topics in the run up! I've always wanted to do a campaign journal, actually, so this would be a great opportunity.
Okay that makes sense, thanks Eltacolibre!