Alright this was another of the requests from a player of mine who wanted to make a character based on the Deadly Dealer feat but thought that the Harrower Prestige was lackluster or just not what they were going for, and asked if I could make a prestige class for that speciality. This is the result of some ideas I had with the concept, but I'm not really satisified in some way. I'd like to maybe incorporate more random chance into it and toy with the idea of drawing specific cards like in a tarot deck.
Part of that idea is from getting the P4 arena Tarot cards, 11 in numbers 0- 10 which are the Fool, the magician, the high priestess, the empress, the emperor, the hierophant, the lovers, the chariot, justice, the hermit, and the wheel of fortune.
I'd love to have an ability thats like "x times per day draw a card" and each one has a special effect, but what they would be and how relevant they might impact the game I'm just not sure on, so I'm wondering is anyone has any thoughts?
Heres the classes as is, if it's bad or needs some tuning please let me know: Harrow Master
It's nice, I'd remove the restriction to Arcane Strike free actions, the Bloodrager can do that with a single feat -- why wouldn't this guy be able to do that too?
I'd narrow down Fated Draw into more grounded options though.
Have you and your player looked at the archetypes and options from the Harrow Handbook? The card caster magus archetype can pretty much do everything this prestige class can and more. Just homebrew an explosive touch spell, and you're good to go.
Sharp Deck isn't that good because if the character gets their deck enhanced, the ability is completely wasted. I also don't really see the point of Master Deck other than having returning on your cards, which is a good but not necessary ability for a cardslinger. Arcane Strike treats a whole deck as a ranged weapon with the cards as ammunition. This allows you to replace the cards in your enhanced deck instead of buying a new magic harrow deck. Replacement cards in a +2 harrow deck gain the enhancement bonus for the same reason arrows gain enhancement bonuses when fired from a magical bow.
Yeah, it definitely seems like Card Caster Magus and Cartomancer Witch have this covered much better.
The Card Caster in particular gets, as I recall, ALL of the abilities you give here, besides Sharp Deck, but often better.
what is the harrow handbook exactly? I asked a few of the players and none of us have actually heard of it and those archetypes aren't on the PFsrd lol.
The idea behind the Master Deck was that they needed this specific deck of cards (or to make a new one) for their class abilities to work mainly, and if it was stolen or destroyed it would be a big deal in game, and that the goal was to have it be THAT deck, the same cards where the ones you threw every time since replacing them I wanted to feel like something you wouldn't normally do. The master of cards deck would be their treasure and all that.
Why is sharp deck wasted? is it one of those awkward "this stacks but this doesn't" things cause I forget why enhancement bonuses do or don't stack being as it's weapon +s, but it's supposed to stack with whatever the deck actually is (like a +2 deck would get the extra +2 at 4th level)
The blood rager thing I didn't know either since we don't have that book either, but I'll ask then what sort of things would make this class more unique, since I can say without question the reason the player asked for a prestige was to have more options, and an archetype within a single class probably isn't what he's looking for (and honestly we've never even been interested in the Magus, not sure what it is about it, but it just never seemed that much fun lol, I'll look it over again just to see what it might be thats polarizing since it's been a while)
They are on the SRD, but not on the table.
As for Sharp Deck, enhancement bonuses don't stack the way you worded it. It would probably be better written as "At 1st and 4th level the enhancement bonus of a Harrow Master's deck (if any) increases by +1".
They are on the SRD, but not on the table.
As for Sharp Deck, enhancement bonuses don't stack the way you worded it. It would probably be better written as "At 1st and 4th level the enhancement bonus of a Harrow Master's deck (if any) increases by +1".
wow thats a little weird that it's not on the list, but thank you Rynjin, and I'll take the wording into account then I didn't remember about wording and stacking issues
I just did a once over though with the Magus and I still think theirs perfect room for a prestige for that type of character at least, like a lot of archetypes this one doesn't seem to change very much (yes I know thats the point, but a little more off the same road wouldn't hurt...thus prestiges! lol). And I also looked over the Magus again and I can say that the player in question would NOT like to play as one for a couple of reasons, firstly that they are a prepared caster which is really unpopular at the table, and that they seem a little like just a "fighty-bard" fusion with just 1 trick bursts. This is knowledge only gained from reading the class and looking at the common build ideas so it's not super educated on them.
In the end though, what do you think I can add in with this class to make it more unique? Hell if it's interesting still the player might try out the magus with that archetype (he had been wanting to do an Arcane Duelist Bard).
what is the harrow handbook exactly? I asked a few of the players and none of us have actually heard of it and those archetypes aren't on the PFsrd lol.
The Harrow Handbook is a Player Companion centered around playing characters using a harrow deck. In addition to rogue talents that grant Deadly Dealer, the book has card caster and cartnomancer. Since these are archetypes and not prestige classes, your player can throw cards right away rather than wait until 6th level to pick up that prestige class. That alone might make these options much more appealing to your player.
The idea behind the Master Deck was that they needed this specific deck of cards (or to make a new one) for their class abilities to work mainly, and if it was stolen or destroyed it would be a big deal in game, and that the goal was to have it be THAT deck, the same cards where the ones you threw every time since replacing them I wanted to feel like something you wouldn't normally do. The master of cards deck would be their treasure and all that.
I can't see any good reason to bestow that drawback, especially when the only other ability the harrow master receives is Card Sharp, which will become useless by the time the character gets this prestige class. They'll probably already have a harrow deck with a +1 enhancement bonus. More importantly, Card Sharp isn't very cool or interesting of an ability to warrant a handicap like this.
Why is sharp deck wasted? is it one of those awkward "this stacks but this doesn't" things cause I forget why enhancement bonuses do or don't stack being as it's weapon +s, but it's supposed to stack with whatever the deck actually is (like a +2 deck would get the extra +2 at 4th level)
Generally, bonuses of the same type do not stack. This is the case for enhancement bonuses.
(and honestly we've never even been interested in the Magus, not sure what it is about it, but it just never seemed that much fun lol, I'll look it over again just to see what it might be thats polarizing since it's been a while)
The magus is fun because it allows you to play a mage-warrior that can deliver spells through weapon attacks. Because of this and the numerous decent archetypes like the kensai and hexcrafter, there's many ways you can flavor the class. The card caster is particularly of interest because it allows you to do everything your prestige class does and better.
1) It's a spellcasting class that has the same BAB as your prestige class.
2) The card caster gets Deadly Dealer at 1st level and doesn't need Arcane Strike to use it (better than Arcane Swiftness).
3) Arcane pool lets the card caster enhance his deck and gain the returning quality, explicitly stacks with any existing enhancement bonus (better than Card Sharp and Master Deck).
4) Card caster's Role Dealer grants a special effect based on what card the magus draws.
5) Last but not least, the card caster can deliver ranged and touch spells by throwing cards at enemies. This opens up an entire spell list of possibilities! Want to throw a card to blast someone away? Cast force punch. Want to throw a card that paralyzes someone? Cast hold person. Want to stick a card on somebody to sap their strength? Ray of enfeeblement.
I don't mean to insult the effort you put into your work. I'm just thinking in terms of what your player wants and what you're trying to accomplish.
what is the harrow handbook exactly? I asked a few of the players and none of us have actually heard of it and those archetypes aren't on the PFsrd lol.The Harrow Handbook is a Player Companion centered around playing characters using a harrow deck. In addition to rogue talents that grant Deadly Dealer, the book has card caster and cartnomancer. Since these are archetypes and not prestige classes, your player can throw cards right away rather than wait until 6th level to pick up that prestige class. That alone might make these options much more appealing to your player.
The idea behind the Master Deck was that they needed this specific deck of cards (or to make a new one) for their class abilities to work mainly, and if it was stolen or destroyed it would be a big deal in game, and that the goal was to have it be THAT deck, the same cards where the ones you threw every time since replacing them I wanted to feel like something you wouldn't normally do. The master of cards deck would be their treasure and all that.I can't see any good reason to bestow that drawback, especially when the only other ability the harrow master receives is Card Sharp, which will become useless by the time the character gets this prestige class. They'll probably already have a harrow deck with a +1 enhancement bonus. More importantly, Card Sharp isn't very cool or interesting of an ability to warrant a handicap like this.
Why is sharp deck wasted? is it one of those awkward "this stacks but this doesn't" things cause I forget why enhancement bonuses do or don't stack being as it's weapon +s, but it's supposed to stack with whatever the deck actually is (like a +2 deck would get the extra +2 at 4th...
Well he was going with Arcane Duelist Bard which gets Arcane Strike at first level, and then was going to get Deadly Dealer as their feat of choice since we were gonna just ignore the weird 'needs level 5' thing for a gimmick so doing stuff before 6 isn't a problem, and I fixed the issue with Sharp Deck I think.
I will admit that I feel a little meh that some of the idea existed in a book I've never heard of, but I started this game in 3.5 thats nothing new lol.
I'm not really able to disagree with many of your points of course, but I'll reply to them.
1) since this was aimed as a bard or magus like prestige, job done then lol
2) This I find a little weird but kinda cool, not needing the swift action is really, really nice after all.
3) Ah but why not just have it for free I say! lol. This comes from the view point though of someone who will endlessly seek to never have to use any 'per day' resources until it's time to kill the boss, because per day resources are not to be wasted on anything period, too few and far between..this may be why I have trouble playing casters in some games and have such a pention for give large numbers of uses or fondness of per encounter powers lol.
4) Here I admit I just don't know what it's refering to. I thought that a Harrow Deck was like a Tarot deck so I don't know how alignments relate, but since it only modifies criticals it's nice but a little lackluster I feel for what you could do with it.
5) Thats pretty nifty and I had actually considered an ability like that for the class originally but figured it was to similar to the magus ability.
Overall the only thing I don't much like about the Archetype is that it's a Magus one, I see they have a lot of archetypes though in general I have the issue with them that they don't replace enough of the existing class. The Magus in general seems kinda one trick pony other than point #5. How reliant are they on the Arcane Pool? and would it just be possible to entirely remove the Prepared casting?
I'm mostly trying to think on what the player would want to do and if I could convince them to try a magus (even this one) cause I just remember that they really didn't like them before.
While the magus is infamous for encouraging one optimal build, they can enable many interesting character concepts. I've seen them played like a fighting wizard, a mystic samurai, a whip specialist, a mysterious stranger with a sentient scarf, a Thor-like character that smites people with thundering hammer attacks, etc. I've played two magi in my career. One was a four-armed anthropomorphic cerberus that fought with three swords and cast spells at the same time. The other used his spells to sneak up on people and whack them with a big sword.
Magi aren't very reliant on arcane pool for enhancing weapons. However, it does play a huge role with Spell Recall, which is a major plus for the class. Spell recall basically turns the magus into a prepared caster that plays like a spontaneous caster. If the player still prefers to play a spontaneous caster, it wouldn't be unreasonable to apply an ad-hoc archetype that turns the magus into a bard-like Charisma-based spontaneous caster using Charisma for their class features instead of Intelligence. You could have spell recall allow him to regain spell slots or replace it with a different ability. Just don't use the Eldritch Scion archetype -- that thing is awful.
Arcane Duelist Bard isn't a bad idea, either. I wanted to play a cardslinging bard until Harrow Handbook came out. However, I'd actually think he'd be better off sticking as a bard than use your prestige class.
Here I admit I just don't know what it's refering to. I thought that a Harrow Deck was like a Tarot deck so I don't know how alignments relate
A harrow deck is a tarot deck made by Paizo designed specifically for D&D. Every card has a suit associated with an alignment and an ability score. For example, the Rabbit Prince is the chaotic good card of Dexterity. Some abilities, such as the Harrowed feat and the Harrower's class features, differ depending on the type of cards you draw. You don't need a physical deck, either. You can simply roll 1d6 to determine the suit and 1d10 (reroll for 10) to determine the alignment.
While the magus is infamous for encouraging one optimal build, they can enable many interesting character concepts. I've seen them played like a fighting wizard, a mystic samurai, a whip specialist, a mysterious stranger with a sentient scarf, a Thor-like character that smites people with thundering hammer attacks, etc. I've played two magi in my career. One was a four-armed anthropomorphic cerberus that fought with three swords and cast spells at the same time. The other used his spells to sneak up on people and whack them with a big sword.
Magi aren't very reliant on arcane pool for enhancing weapons. However, it does play a huge role with Spell Recall, which is a major plus for the class. Spell recall basically turns the magus into a prepared caster that plays like a spontaneous caster. If the player still prefers to play a spontaneous caster, it wouldn't be unreasonable to apply an ad-hoc archetype that turns the magus into a bard-like Charisma-based spontaneous caster using Charisma for their class features instead of Intelligence. You could have spell recall allow him to regain spell slots or replace it with a different ability. Just don't use the Eldritch Scion archetype -- that thing is awful.
Arcane Duelist Bard isn't a bad idea, either. I wanted to play a cardslinging bard until Harrow Handbook came out. However, I'd actually think he'd be better off sticking as a bard than use your prestige class.
Here I admit I just don't know what it's refering to. I thought that a Harrow Deck was like a Tarot deck so I don't know how alignments relateA harrow deck is a tarot deck made by Paizo designed specifically for D&D. Every card has a suit associated with an alignment and an ability score. For example, the Rabbit Prince is the chaotic good card of Dexterity. Some abilities, such as the Harrowed feat and the Harrower's class features, differ depending on the type of cards you draw. You don't need a physical deck, either. You can simply roll 1d6 to determine the suit and 1d10...
Ok that cerberous thing sounds evil as hell lol. I suppose thats at least good then that they can at least do other things, I'm still not really sure what it is about them that makes them seem so easy to just pass over. Bard bias or something maybe?
With the Ad-hoc thing I probably will to make it more appealing if he does want to give Magus a shot, and about sticking with bard I can see your point and not at the same time. I know what I have isn't 'great', but I did say I wasn't satisfied with it lol. He wanted something really specific, to start as bard for the spells and spell list full of utility and in the beginning do some song stuff, but then just SOLELY focus on being a card thrower with magical effects. Hence why I asked about more unique effects I might be able to have happen with drawing the cards. I still feel like a more focused prestige could be just as worth taking if it's good enough (and we're a pretty prestige happy group, we don't usually like to stick in a class for a full 20 unless the higher abilities are juicey).
Seriously though thanks for pointing out the archetype and some of the magus stuff, hell maybe could turn this into a prestige AIMED at the Card Caster magus or something, might be interesting lol
Good luck to you and your player then! This made me want to revisit my fate dealer oracle archetype.
Good luck to you and your player then! This made me want to revisit my fate dealer oracle archetype.
That sounds pretty cool too heh, I had a thought though, what about adding in some more powerful effects or stronger regular damage ability by taking out the extra spell levels at something like 4th and 8th?
Alright this is the second version of the class after being made to be more of a prestige specifically aimed at enhancing the Card Caster. What I'm not sure on though is the balance of the new Fated Draw ability. Because it's only a few times per day and a random effect at that. I'm not sure if they should be toned down or even made stronger (or just traded out individually or scrapped entirely.) I am aware that the regular Harrow deck doesn't use the Tarot major arcana but I don't know what the Harrow deck has in it so I went with what I do know for now which partly fits the 'special deck' idea..though truthfully I only have that still because I wanted to limit the number of effects they can draw.
I'd honestly not take this prestige class. The abilities don't entice me enough to give up magus class features, despite keeping arcane pool and spell progression. If you really want to continue developing this, I recommend changing the requirements so you must have at least 5 character levels before selecting this prestige class, which is standard. Then, you can use the assumption that an Nth level harrow master should have the same amount of power and abilities as a level 5+N magus. For example, a 2nd level harrow master should be as powerful as a 7th level magus.
Fated Draw sounds interesting, but I think it goes too far in giving higher level spell usages than what the magus is capable of. Some of the abilities feel kind of clunky and awkward.
It also doesn't make any sense to me why a class called "harrow master" doesn't actually use a harrow deck and can't do any fortune-telling stuff with it. It's not a harrow deck if you reduce the deck down to 11 cards and make up the cards yourself. You can see a listing of all the cards in a harrow deck with a little research. If you don't want to have Fated Draw use all 54 cards, you can simply have it work differently based on the alignment and ability score drawn. Alignment alone gives you 9 effects to create.
I'd honestly not take this prestige class. The abilities don't entice me enough to give up magus class features, despite keeping arcane pool and spell progression. If you really want to continue developing this, I recommend changing the requirements so you must have at least 5 character levels before selecting this prestige class, which is standard. Then, you can use the assumption that an Nth level harrow master should have the same amount of power and abilities as a level 5+N magus. For example, a 2nd level harrow master should be as powerful as a 7th level magus.
Fated Draw sounds interesting, but I think it goes too far in giving higher level spell usages than what the magus is capable of. Some of the abilities feel kind of clunky and awkward.
It also doesn't make any sense to me why a class called "harrow master" doesn't actually use a harrow deck and can't do any fortune-telling stuff with it. It's not a harrow deck if you reduce the deck down to 11 cards and make up the cards yourself. You can see a listing of all the cards in a harrow deck with a little research. If you don't want to have Fated Draw use all 54 cards, you can simply have it work differently based on the alignment and ability score drawn. Alignment alone gives you 9 effects to create.
Well you technically need 4 levels total before you can take this from skill points alone. And I'm curious really what would entice then :/, the only thing that magus gets that really looks worth it is spell combat. The armor stuff is alright but the loss of speed and probably being a high dex character anyway makes that not seem worth it, and spell recall I just personally don't like though I do see why some people like it. Isn't the point of a prestige to sacrifice the broad options for highly focused ones? and at the moment I'd say a Magus/4 this 3 woud be as strong as a Magus/7 just from looking at numbers and options
For fated draw yeah some of them are pretty eh I know, and they're just what I thought up of for starters based on the meanings of the cards (which are actual tarot Major Arcana, not made up), and I reduced to 11 instead of 22 (and from 78 total yeesh). And so even with being so limited in uses per day and not lasting but a combat at most (much shorter than some spells) they're still too strong? Though I feel I should point out that they should be capable of things a magus isn't since they "aren't" a magus. I wanted this to feel less like just a caster that can melee, and like a range attacker who happens to mix spells and special powers in.
The name...yeah thats just cause I don't know what to call it for good yet, and they do get 1 fortune telling power lol (but one ability a medium doesn't make I'm aware). They would probably use a normal deck for attacks unless they wanted to use the +1 DC stuff of the master deck, and yeah I wouldn't mind phasing out the master deck thing entirely. I mainly didn't yet just because after reading up on the Harrow deck and all the alignment/ability score stuff it seems just weird to me, and thats a LOT of effects if I wanted to have something unique for each alignment and Ability.
Really what I wanted the powers to read like is a Deck of Many Things light, which is based on the Tarot just doesn't have all the major arcana in it
Also, with only 11 cards, it's not really much of a deck at all. With TWF, 3-Manyshot, and iterative attacks, you'll run out of cards fast, especially with the limitations of the returning property.
hence the bit saying they would use a normal deck for attacking lol, but again it's not what I really 'want' as the end result
Alright I have a question rereading a few things and I can't tell if I'm dumb or not. How do you determine which cards are actually drawn in the Harrower Prestige? All it says is that they draw three cards, but it's not like you'd have a harrow deck in your hand, so how do they determine it?
Edit- I am dumb, missed the 1d6 line up at the top...so how do you figure alignment?
Alright I have a question rereading a few things and I can't tell if I'm dumb or not. How do you determine which cards are actually drawn in the Harrower Prestige? All it says is that they draw three cards, but it's not like you'd have a harrow deck in your hand, so how do they determine it?
Edit- I am dumb, missed the 1d6 line up at the top...so how do you figure alignment?
Look up the harrow deck's item description.
Look up the harrow deck's item description.Alright I have a question rereading a few things and I can't tell if I'm dumb or not. How do you determine which cards are actually drawn in the Harrower Prestige? All it says is that they draw three cards, but it's not like you'd have a harrow deck in your hand, so how do they determine it?
Edit- I am dumb, missed the 1d6 line up at the top...so how do you figure alignment?
Stuff for this is just scattered all over huh lol
Stuff for this is just scattered all over huh lolLook up the harrow deck's item description.Alright I have a question rereading a few things and I can't tell if I'm dumb or not. How do you determine which cards are actually drawn in the Harrower Prestige? All it says is that they draw three cards, but it's not like you'd have a harrow deck in your hand, so how do they determine it?
Edit- I am dumb, missed the 1d6 line up at the top...so how do you figure alignment?
They wouldn't reiterate the rules for the harrow deck anymore than they would reiterate the rules for how nets work in a net-based archetype.
They wouldn't reiterate the rules for the harrow deck anymore than they would reiterate the rules for how nets work in a net-based archetype.Stuff for this is just scattered all over huh lolLook up the harrow deck's item description.Alright I have a question rereading a few things and I can't tell if I'm dumb or not. How do you determine which cards are actually drawn in the Harrower Prestige? All it says is that they draw three cards, but it's not like you'd have a harrow deck in your hand, so how do they determine it?
Edit- I am dumb, missed the 1d6 line up at the top...so how do you figure alignment?
It was supposed to be a joke lol
Kind of another idea I'm not sure is any better or worse, this one just uses a Harrow Deck for easy of figureing which cards are drawn and has some inspiriation from the Harrower directly. Not nessisarily a prestige aimed right at Magus, but I did add some bonus points in for them. This one I think has more potential honestly, though seeing as I made this pretty tired I can't be sure lol.