Man I sure am trembling in my boots at the 8th level Sorcerer wading into melee.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but I don't see anything about Monstrous Physique II that grants you those Bite, Claw or Wing attacks. It seems pretty explicit about which powers are granted in each version of the spell. Natural attacks aren't on the list. Form of the Dragon, on the other hand, explicitly states that it DOES grant such attacks.
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but I don't see anything about Monstrous Physique II that grants you those Bite, Claw or Wing attacks. It seems pretty explicit about which powers are granted in each version of the spell. Natural attacks aren't on the list. Form of the Dragon, on the other hand, explicitly states that it DOES grant such attacks.Of all the polymorph spells in Pathfinder, only Form of the Dragon and Undead Anatomy that explicitly grants attacks. However, Beast Shape, Elemental Body, Plant Shape, and Vermin Shape would make very little sense if they didn't grant the attacks of their forms, since those forms can't typically wield weapons. Accordingly, I've never seen them treated otherwise. What would be the point of a druid if it can't attack while shapeshifted?
They don't have to specify. The Polymorph section of the Magic chapter has this to say:
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.
In other words, except for the ones that specify explicitly what you get, you get ALL the creature's natural attacks.
This does make Vouivre a very good form since it has 5 natural attacks, 3 of which do unusually high damage, AND you still have another set of hands to keep weapons in (or summon claws, if that kind of sorc).
I stand corrected. I had forgotten about that general rule in the Magic chapter (shows how often my group uses Druids or reaches high levels). The Vouivre is certainly a good choice for melee then. I'll one-up you and go for Grendel though. 2 claw attacks starting at 3d10 and grab, bite starting at 4d8. If you couldn't use Grendel due to being Mythic, you could pick a Popobala with Bite 2d6 + 1d4 CHA drain, 2 talons 1d6 with grab, 2 wings at 1d6. Popobala available with Monstrous Physique I; a level 3 spell. Ultimately, it's up to the group and the GM to decide what's fair. As for what constitutes a monstrous humanoid versus an aberration or a magical beast, I would assume it is mostly to do with their origins, which these fringe cases aren't exactly clear about.
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Man I sure am trembling in my boots at the 8th level Sorcerer wading into melee.
Sure if it's a standard str10 or less caster build... but how about on an 11th level barbarian/sorcerer/dragon disciple? Now we're looking at a str40 character, with 5 attacks, and can haste themself, fly, etc... yikes.
Which isn't a Sorcerer, it' a Dragon Disciple, and as such SHOULD benefit from polymorph spells, which the vast majority of the time are meant for combat purposes rather than utility.
Form of the Dragon 1 sucks, big whoop. They're put up at too high of a level, for the mot part. That's a FotD problem, not a MP problem.
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So yes, you can make characters that benefit highly from polymorph spells. And yes the vouivre is stronger than most other creatures you could turn in to with the same level spell. Note the spells came out before the bestiary 4 did, so it could be argued that their power level has been elevated beyond what was originally intended due to the release of mythic monsters in bestiary 4.
I'm not sure that it's overpowered compared to other things you can do at that level or not though.
As for it being a monstrous humanoid, it is a half human creature. Other similar half human creatures, like centaurs or lamias, are also monstrous humanoids. So it makes sense in that regard.
Contributor
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Also note that the vouivre first appeared in AP #30 (Council of Thieves part 6), which may explain any odd design decisions. This is around the time they were printing books like Sargava, the Lost Colony, for context.
EDIT: Forgot about Kingmaker. Still, it was very early in the life cycle of the Pathfinder system.
Thread necro!
Can Vouivre even use weapons at all? They don't seem to have the Undersized Weapons quality, which would mean they use a large sized great sword in combat along with their claws, bite, wings, and general laughter at inferior combat forms.
Perhaps they only actually have flappy fins that LOOK like hands, preventing them from using weapons and tools?