Hi Everyone,
I am playing in a game that is only using the Core Rule Book. It's been a nice challenge to make an effective character. I'm not very concerned about over-optimizing. The party is mostly newbies with a very strange party makeup: 2 barbarians, 2 clerics, a monk, a ranger, and me. So, it's very different, but, it's great fun.
I am currently a level 1 rogue. My plan is to take some fighter levels and then go onto shadow dancer at level 6. But, what is the "optimal" combination? 2R/3F? 3R/2F?
And, beyond spring attack and ion will, what are some good CRB feat choices for this character?
Human Rogue
STR 17, DEX 15, CON 12, INT 11, WIS 12, CHA 8
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Dodge
Background: A recruitment officer from Lastwall, this character is working with the party to see why recruitment has been low from the area. He is an older, fatherly figure to the rest of the party.
Thanks,
Bump...
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In my opinion, having a Shadow dancer myself, going Rogue/Ninja is not a great entry to shadow dancer due to overlapping abilities. That said I would ask to retrain to a fighter, and go fighter 5/Shadow Dancer X.
If you'd like a build idea, you can click my information and see my PFS legal Oathbound Paladin (Vengeance) 8/Shadow Dancer 3, who fights mostly as a mobile fighter.
With 7 PCs, it kind of doesn't matter what you are, the sheer number of beat-sticks will dominate everything.
IMO Shadowdancer kinda...sucks. It's incredibly underwhelming. I love the flavor of it, but without non-core stuff to spiffy it up, it kinda makes even a pure rogue look more appealing.
Seriously, what can it do? Medium BAB...everyone but wizard/sorcerer can do that OR BETTER.
Rogue talents? Rogues can do that AND get sneak attack and more skill points per level.
Skills? Again, rogue (wow, this may be the only class that has "the rogue can do it and better" that isn't a NPC class) or bard AND have spells or go ranger AND better BAB.
Teleporting? Did you see the feet/day limit? It's a joke. You mean I wait for 9th level at the earliest to get this power, and all I can do is one 40' jump, or up to four 10' jumps? You're kidding me! Monk can do it waaaaaaay better, even though gets it two levels behind. But with a massive extension of distance and the ability to do it as much as you can spend ki on it, it's totally worth the wait. With better BAB using flurry on top of that.
Crappy SLAs? You get your first one, the equivalent of a 1st level spell, at 8th character level. That's half as fast as the slowest casters in the core rulebook.
Shadow pet? Pretty frickin' cool, to be honest, and this class's only redeeming quality, but 1. It only necessitates a 3-level dip, as the class advances based upon your stats, not your class levels. Furthermore, really? You want to bring a pet into a group that has 7 players, one of which already is a pet class? That's just mean.
Not wanting to over-optimize is noble, and I get it, but shadowdancer is shooting yourself in the foot. Unless your concept is "have a cool shadow pet", in which case a 3-level dip will do that, there's nothing the shadowdancer brings to the table that can't be done by another class better.
You don't have an arcane caster. An arcane trickster is one of the harder classes to get into, as playing a split caster/rogue is pretty darn suboptimal until you get INTO the class, and even then it takes a few levels to catch up, but you can get everything the shadowdancer gets and then some, except the pet of course...and I suppose the BAB, but self-buff way more than covers that gap.
Now that I've covered my "Don't do that", to answer your actual question, which is "how to get into shadowdancer in the most optimal way". I would say rogue 1/fighter 4, wield a two-handed weapon and smack stuff hard. You're gonna get outshined by everyone until you get your shadow pet and teleporting, and then you'll get one cool round where you do one cool trick (and without dimensional agility it will pretty much only be useful for escaping), and then your pet will outshine you.
Unless you fight undead. Or constructs. Or other stuff immune to his strength drain touch. Then he'll cry soft shadow tears.
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I think rogue levels combine poorly with the Shadowdancer. It's honestly not a bad prestige class, although it's also not the best one ever.
The main freature of the Shadowdancer is the Shadow. It gets half your HP, your base saves and your BAB. So you'd want to play a class where those numbers are high. That's not the rogue.
Further, the PrC gives you a lot of tricks that a rogue gets; being a rogue is basically redundant. The PrC will give you evasion, uncanny dodge and even (very nice!) Darkvision. It'll also give you rogueish class skills.
So what classes do go well with it, based on CRB?
I think Ranger is a solid one. Go 5 levels ranger, take the PrC for 3 levels, then get your 6th Ranger level. It'll give your shadow full BAB, decent saves and HP. You're not too feat-starved thanks to combat style, either.
Barbarian also works, in which case I recommend a polearm build (since you're taking Combat Reflexes as a PrC prerequisite).
The weirdest but probably best one is actually Paladin. Paladins get a good Will save, which is nice because that's the one your Shadow should be most worried about (half the things that force Con saves can't affect it, many Reflex effects do only half damage to it anyway). Paladins also aren't very feat-starved as a class, due to having good features to start with. There's no mechanical reason why paladins can't go into the PrC, but you should think about the flavour of it.
Your feat path will probably be the same with all three of these classes. I suggest being Human, because you kinda want the bonus feat. Since you gain Darkvision from the PrC, you deal with one of the biggest drawbacks of being human. That said, here's your feat path:
1, human: Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
3: Dodge
5: Mobility
Well, I've already started as a rogue and I cannot change classes. And, with the character's background and how I see him progress in the party, Fighter is the only option.
I understand that other options may be more optimized, but, that's not my goal.
I'm thinking Rogue 2/Fighter 3. Something like this:
1 - Rogue 1 - Combat Reflexes, Dodge
2 - R1/Fighter 1 - Mobility
3 - R1/F2 - Iron Will, WF (some reach weapon), bravery +1
4 - R2/F2 - rogue talent (fast stealth)
5 - R2/F3 - Spring Attack, Power Attack, armor training
6 - Shadowdancer
So, at level 6, I will have HiPS with full movement stealth in medium armor. The sneak attack damage is just gravy.
Suggestions?
You do not want to play in medium armor as a shadow dancer is it will eliminate any use of evasion. Mithral Breastplate on the other hand is completely worthwhile.
Good point. So, would you suggest a 1 or 2 level dip in Fighter?
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You do not want to play in medium armor as a shadow dancer is it will eliminate any use of evasion. Mithral Breastplate on the other hand is completely worthwhile.Good point. So, would you suggest a 1 or 2 level dip in Fighter?
Based on what you have now, I would either go Rogue 3/Fighter 2 or Rogue 1/Fighter 4. All the extra rogue levels really give you is more skills, a single talent, and an extra die of sneak attack as evasion and access to talents are granted by shadowdancer.
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I honestly think the best entry to Shadowdancer from Core is Paladin. You have some great charisma synergy, no overlap in abilites, and something just tickles me about a LG shadow companion.It may be nice numbers wise, but I really can't see the combo from a thematic standpoint.
A paladin doesn't have to be the heavy armor wearing heavy cavalry smiter. By bringing light to the darkness, shadows are made. I could see a paladin going into those shadows to fight evil there. Nothing about a shadowdancer's abilites are in conflict with being a Paladin, they just don't match the cliche of your typically lawful stupid paladin trope.
I honestly think the best entry to Shadowdancer from Core is Paladin. You have some great charisma synergy, no overlap in abilites, and something just tickles me about a LG shadow companion.It may be nice numbers wise, but I really can't see the combo from a thematic standpoint.
I think the theme is "Hey look, my shadow is LG. Take that GM!"
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Why is it that a Paladin that refuses to work with the Undead is Lawful Stupid? At the very least it's riding on the edge of what's supposed to be proper behavior.A paladin doesn't have to be the heavy armor wearing heavy cavalry smiter. By bringing light to the darkness, shadows are made. I could see a paladin going into those shadows to fight evil there. Nothing about a shadowdancer's abilites are in conflict with being a Paladin, they just don't match the cliche of your typically lawful stupid paladin trope.I honestly think the best entry to Shadowdancer from Core is Paladin. You have some great charisma synergy, no overlap in abilites, and something just tickles me about a LG shadow companion.It may be nice numbers wise, but I really can't see the combo from a thematic standpoint.
I'm not saying that refusing to work with Undead is lawful stupid. But not all undead are evil, as shown by ghosts and shadowdancer companions.
I'm not saying that refusing to work with Undead is lawful stupid. But not all undead are evil, as shown by ghosts and shadowdancer companions.Why is it that a Paladin that refuses to work with the Undead is Lawful Stupid? At the very least it's riding on the edge of what's supposed to be proper behavior.A paladin doesn't have to be the heavy armor wearing heavy cavalry smiter. By bringing light to the darkness, shadows are made. I could see a paladin going into those shadows to fight evil there. Nothing about a shadowdancer's abilites are in conflict with being a Paladin, they just don't match the cliche of your typically lawful stupid paladin trope.I honestly think the best entry to Shadowdancer from Core is Paladin. You have some great charisma synergy, no overlap in abilites, and something just tickles me about a LG shadow companion.It may be nice numbers wise, but I really can't see the combo from a thematic standpoint.
The Risen Martyr PrC in 3.5 (book of exalted deeds) was a super-good "undead" type character. Crazy powerful...
But, back on track. How many levels of Fighter would you suggest for my character?
Personally, I would go with Rogue 1/Fighter 4. Shadowdancer has a large feat tax entry, and the extra fighter levels help with that. Also, you aren't wasting shadowdancer evasion since you won't be getting it from rogue.
So going two levels of rogue for the fast stealth talent isn't worth it?
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Personally, I would go with Rogue 1/Fighter 4. Shadowdancer has a large feat tax entry, and the extra fighter levels help with that. Also, you aren't wasting shadowdancer evasion since you won't be getting it from rogue.So going two levels of rogue for the fast stealth talent isn't worth it?
You can always pick up at Shadowdancer 3. If you would rather have it early, I would go Rogue 3 to pick up an extra die of sneak attack, because there is no loss of BAB and you are already sacrificing the fighter 4 bonus feat and weapon specialization.
Well, with a reach build, full movement is less important. I think I may be able to go without a rogue talent. Loosing WS is a good point too.
Besides, advancing into fighter for more levels goes along better with my background.
What other feats would you recommend?