Confused about mounted charge


Rules Questions

Sovereign Court

Suppose you're a 8th level Mammoth Lord. Your mount has the following abilities:

Quote:

Steed’s Reach (Ex): At 7th level, the mammoth rider’s steed’s reach improves to 15 feet.

Combined Might (Ex): At 8th level, a mounted mammoth rider strikes with the combined power of herself and her steed. Once per round, when the mammoth rider hits with a melee attack from astride her steed during a charge, she adds half her steed’s Strength modifier to the damage roll in addition to her own, provided her steed is currently capable of taking a free action.

Clearly it's intended that you can strike from the back of your charging mammoth. However, your mammoth likely has more reach than you do, even if you're using a lance.

As per this FAQ the only way you are going to be charging is when your mount charges:

Quote:

Mounted Combat: When making a charge while mounted, which creature charges? The rider or the mount?

Both charge in unison, suffer the same penalty to AC, the gaining the same bonus to the attack rolls and following all other rules for the charge. The mounted combat rules are a little unclear on this. Replace the third paragraph under the "Combat while Mounted" section on page 202 with the following text. Note that a "mounted charge" is synonymous with a "charge while mounted," and that when a lance is "when used from the back of a charging mount" it is during a mounted charge not when only the mount charges.

A mounted charge is a charge made by you and your mount. During a mounted charge, you deal double damage with your first melee attack made with a lance or with any weapon if you have Spirited Charge (or a similar effect), or you deal triple damage with a lance and Spirited Charge.

This change will be reflected in future printings of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook

So it's those other rules that I'm confused about. From the combat chapter, about charges:

PRD, CRB, Combat, Charge wrote:

Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.

Assuming you have 10ft reach and your mount has 15ft reach, how do you do this? I can imagine several scenarios;

1) Your mount moves until it's 15ft from the enemy, then stops and attacks. You can't attack.

2) Your mount moves until it's 15ft from the enemy, makes an attack, then slides 5ft more, and you make an attack.

3) Your mount moves until it's 10ft from the enemy and you both attack.

4) Your mount moves until it's 15ft from the enemy, stops, makes an attack. You move another 5 ft (flying through the air?) and make an attack, because the combination of PRD and FAQ don't actually allow you to stop moving before you've reached a space from which you can attack.

I'm thinking 2 or 3 are the most reasonable solutions. The bolded text in PRD and FAQ seem to imply that you. must. continue. to move until you can attack.

I've tried looking through old threads but they were confusing, some predating the FAQ, others postdating it, but I basically couldn't make heads or tails of it.

The answers would likewise apply to a PC wielding a non-reach weapon from the back of a mount with 10ft reach, but I went with the mammoth lord example because I think it shows unambiguously that a mount may have more reach than a rider that's trying to make a good-faith effort to use sufficient reach weaponry.


option #2 is an obvius .think of the Indian elephant riders who sit on that palacide on top the beast. they will hit stuff only after the beast usaly trample over the main line.

BUT i'll also go with #3 as an option you can take.
if you and your mount both attack together and charge together and plan on striking together then you will have to issue the attack from the same spot.
the fact the mount can reach over 5 ft earlier is a factor BUT i would rule that people with natural reach can limit themslves when they charge to lesser reach to gain a stratigic option.

this way. the mount,who can attack from 5-15 reach has 3 squires to attack from. depand on his combat strategy. the fact he can hit from 15 ft. doesn't prevent him to get closer nad hit from 10. think of a 2 weapon fighter who can use a reach spear in one hand (there is an arch type for this) and shiled bash with the other.
you can't tell him not to charge and shield bash,just becuse he can allready reach with the spear and hit with it.

for the combined atack of the rider and mount i would call the mount reach as using the 10ft(or 5 if rider uses non reach weapon) option of his weaponery and let them strike at the closer range.(thikn of it as having 3 'difrent' kinds of weapons avilable to the mount a 5' a 10' and a 15 ' reach weapons. when he charges he can pick with wich to attack)

Dark Archive

Yeah this kind of thing has come up at my table quite a few times.
RAW is #1 but we typically go with option #3, it's the cleanest option that makes the most sense.

Sovereign Court

I'm not convinced #1 is strictly RAW either. Because you are also moving, and you're not allowed to stop before you reach a square from which you can attack.

It's pretty borked up. #3 looks a lot closer to RAI than #1.

I do think #2 is actually the best general approach, because it still works in the reverse case: when you have a 10ft Reach weapon like a lance, but your horse doesn't have more than 5ft reach. Then you'd hit with the lance and continue 5ft so your horse can attack.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I would rule #3 as I believe it's the only option the can eliminate the rules conflict. Charge says you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent, that you must move 10'+ and then attack. Meanwhile the FAQ says that both charge in unison (therefore both the rider and mount are charging).

If you stop at 15'then the rider hasn't met the requirements of the charge (not in attack range, didn't attack) and if you go to where the rider can reach then the mount hasn't meant the requirement to stop at the first space.

Therefore I would say that, as the FAQ implies, the mount and rider should be seen as one charging unit and must move to a space they can both attack from.

Sovereign Court

Bali wrote:

I would rule #3 as I believe it's the only option the can eliminate the rules conflict. Charge says you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent, that you must move 10'+ and then attack. Meanwhile the FAQ says that both charge in unison (therefore both the rider and mount are charging).

If you stop at 15'then the rider hasn't met the requirements of the charge (not in attack range, didn't attack) and if you go to where the rider can reach then the mount hasn't meant the requirement to stop at the first space.

Therefore I would say that, as the FAQ implies, the mount and rider should be seen as one charging unit and must move to a space they can both attack from.

What if they can't? What if the mount has 5ft reach, and the rider has a 10ft reach weapon?


Clearly, the rules require them to shift their grip before charging and then use their reach weapon as an improvised club. I mean, come on. That part's obvious.

In all seriousness, I have no clue how this is supposed to work, and this is one of the best questions I've seen in a long time. Even if a specific answer was intended, it evidently isn't clear from the rules.

I would suggest making a post with the specific question so we can FAQ it.

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