For my level 12 gestalt game I'm looking for monster advice, specifically for CR 10-12 evil outsiders, but that range isn't set in stone; a horde of lower level outsiders with interesting abilities would work as well. It doesn't matter if they are demons, devils, daemons, or other. I can always just take the stats/abilities and reflavor it into something fitting. Anyway, the creatures I'm asking about are to act as minions/support for two more serious threats that will be appearing in the encounter. Creatures with crowd control or debuffing abilities would be a plus. Really I just want things dangerous enough to protect the real dudes from just getting rocket tagged immediately.
The situation is that depending on what the PCs do, this encounter will come to them in their base, which contains 30 or so low level Magus under their command or as a decoy encounter where they would normally be fighting the boss in a dungeon that they mostly beat and then left, leaving the boss pissed and out for revenge. So really how this will play out depends on whether or not the PCs stay on the defensive (as they know a backlash is coming) or if they decide to go back and finish the job they started.
The other combatants so far are:
1. Vrolikai Demon. May be appearing in the middle of the fight.
2. Marilith Demon with the Dimensional Agility tree up to Dimensional Dervish. May be appearing in the middle of the fight.
Variable enemies:
(Decoy boss fight version) = Simulacrums of an Iron Devil, Gallu Demon, and a level 12 or so Antipaldin (class may change). These three include the boss of the dungeon and his two main henchmen. The stats will be greatly reduced even by simulacrum standards; they are more there so the PCs charge in and hopefully blow their best stuff and then realize it was a trick.
(Enemy assaults the PC base version) = There may be a familiar with invisibility and Spellbane (Dimension Door and Emergency Force Sphere against a Rogue Wizard who has Dimensional Dervish) in effect to counter one of the PCs that the boss particularly wants taken down. So the thing will just float around the PC in question and screw his day up. In this circumstance the boss had time to make a deal with a powerful wizard and got his aid in taking down a mutual threat (i.e. the party).
I know it all sounds a bit brutal to throw against level 12s, but they are gestalt. I have bloodrager synthesist who routinely can hit around AC 50 and does 150-200 damage in a full attack, a rogue/wizard with dimensional dervish (and he loves using Emergency Force Sphere and beginning and ending his turn in complete safety) and the ability to call forth essentially another level 12 gestalt (barbarian/alchemist) once per day, a badass grappler who can pin multiple enemies at once with ease, and a bard cleric with an undead horde, including a huge ass dragon. Plus 30 or so odd level 4 Magus potentially.
With all out that in mind, anyone have some suggestions?
Maralith are not really good for their CR, but that Vrolikai demon can be a problem with its gaze attack if the players are not ready for it.
I like barbed devils, and glabrezu's myself. The succubus forces a high will save for its CR. Get 2 or 3 behind the tougher monsters and have them try to mind control someone and things could get interesting.
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Div Shira: Just for the fact that most players would think that it is a lycanthrope at first. It comes with constant true seeing and greater teleport at will, easy to get to the casters and fight them, which should scare your party.
Hezrou: Always part of my favorite, blasphemy, unholy blight, chaos hammer, greater teleport, the stench+ nausea at cr 11, you can even feel free to toss him an advanced template to increase the dc of his abilities.
Another suggestion - from the Wrath of the Righteous threads one thing that people have done that put the 'omg' back into Demons - is make their teleport ability use a move action instead of standard.
We did this as a house rule in our games- it changes everything about demons and frankly makes them way more deadly. Considering the nature of what they are it seems fitting to give the outsiders a bit of a bump in terms of what they can do.
Another suggestion - from the Wrath of the Righteous threads one thing that people have done that put the 'omg' back into Demons - is make their teleport ability use a move action instead of standard.
We did this as a house rule in our games- it changes everything about demons and frankly makes them way more deadly. Considering the nature of what they are it seems fitting to give the outsiders a bit of a bump in terms of what they can do.
Yeah, that would make them more deadly. Are you at least having them provoke attacks of opportunity when they bamf?
Yeah, that would make them more deadly. Are you at least having them provoke attacks of opportunity when they bamf?Another suggestion - from the Wrath of the Righteous threads one thing that people have done that put the 'omg' back into Demons - is make their teleport ability use a move action instead of standard.
We did this as a house rule in our games- it changes everything about demons and frankly makes them way more deadly. Considering the nature of what they are it seems fitting to give the outsiders a bit of a bump in terms of what they can do.
We haven't - they can't full attack when they do this - so for the most part it has kept them from being surrounded, and they can get away from a trip or something - it does change the tactics on the battlefield quite a bit and makes them pretty nasty, however in game it's not been an overwhelming advantage. The flavor of how they move around and how to fight them definitely changes though and gives them a bit more options to avoid the typical adventurer tactics (surround/flank/trip/drop into a pit/etc).
Yeah, that would make them more deadly. Are you at least having them provoke attacks of opportunity when they bamf?Another suggestion - from the Wrath of the Righteous threads one thing that people have done that put the 'omg' back into Demons - is make their teleport ability use a move action instead of standard.
We did this as a house rule in our games- it changes everything about demons and frankly makes them way more deadly. Considering the nature of what they are it seems fitting to give the outsiders a bit of a bump in terms of what they can do.
All they have to do is cast defensively and they can easily make the check. Some of them can autosucceed, but most likely they will be telelporting to get to someone instead of teleport away so no provoking is done.
Another suggestion - from the Wrath of the Righteous threads one thing that people have done that put the 'omg' back into Demons - is make their teleport ability use a move action instead of standard.
Wow, that's brutal. Note that with groups of demons that means you'll pretty much always be flanked. And unless you can Dim Lock them, it makes them damnably hard to kill. And intelligent demons would fight to 1/2 hp, then bamf away and collect a bunch of friends...
Are there threads on how this plays out in practice? Because while I see the attraction, I could also see this getting seriously out of hand.
Doug M.
Yes - brutal - but it does make them alot more of the 'scary monster from nightmares' than they currently are.
I would expect them to get allies based on how they currently would go about this - that is go get them at the start if they need to and then perhaps before 'death' if they had particularly good relationships with their allies - to me demons are never afraid of death unless they somehow planeshifted to the material - usually they are summoned so they just pop back home when they die - doesn't mean they *want* to die but they aren't as terrified of it as a normal enemy is. YMMV based on how demons are played in your campaign.
Keep in mind that they already can teleport at will - RAW they can only do so as a standard - which still gives them a 5 foot step and move equivalent, or another move action after the teleport - this change allows them to use a special ability or single attack after the teleport - so it doesn't change them substantially - but does give them better action economy which makes them much tougher monsters.
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll need to take a look and decide now that I have some time. Also yeah, Marilith did seem a bit overpriced CR wise, but it was going to get some buffs (i.e. Dimensional Dervish that functions off its Greater Teleport) that should make it a more formidable ,or at least a more annoying, enemy.
I do like teleport buff for demons but I think it would be a bit unfair to make that standard for all demons... I'm definitely going to give my unique and/or boss demons that ability though. I was going to do that in a way with the Marilith and Dimensional Dervish. Perhaps the Vrolakai will get the ability now. Hell, maybe it can do it as a swift.