Druids and Earth Glide


Rules Questions


OK, I was running beacon Below today and had a level 11 Druid who spent most of his time in the form of an Earth Elemental which also granted him Earth Glide. He claimed that he could remain just in contact with the ground and cast spells at targets while benefitting from total cover, improved only while he was casting as he had to emerge slightly to be able to target. In effect he was saying he could gain the same sort of benefits incorporeal undead gain when attacking from inside walls.

For reference this is what earth glide says:

Quote:
Earth Glide (Ex) A burrowing earth elemental can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing earth elemental flings the elemental back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.

This is what the incorporeal ability says:

Quote:
In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.

The druid in question has tremorsense.

I allowed it to fly in the scenario if only because I didn't want to get bogged down in a rules argument as Beacon Below runs long anyway. I am curious however about how other PFS GM's would have ruled this?

Liberty's Edge

It may not make much actual sense on a 3D scale, but every medium-sized creature takes up a 5' cube. Yes, even the nearly 7' tall half-orcs only take up a 5' cube in height.

If he's occupying the 5' cube directly underground, then you have a couple questions to ask yourself:

1) Do the rules support being able to target along a line that is directly on the line of cover? Yes. Ranged rules allow this.

2) Is there any reason that a creature with Earth Glide couldn't just sit inside the ground if they wanted? No.

3) So what rule should I use to adjudicate this? Well there isn't one specifically for earth glide, but incorporeal creatures can also sit inside the ground or walls. So it does make some common sense to co-opt that ruling.

That being said, you could also rule that as long as you are earth gliding, you are either in the ground, or you are not. So none of this incorporeality stuff where you get to peak out and attack.

Paizo Employee Developer

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I have a druid character who sometimes pulls a similar trick, and I just assume that he is exposed yet has cover any round in which he attacks or casts a spell from the wall. It grants my character an advantage, but it doesn't completely cut his foes off from fighting back.

That's just my approach as a player, though from a developer's perspective, using the incorporeal rules makes a lot of sense.


John Compton wrote:

I have a druid character who sometimes pulls a similar trick, and I just assume that he is exposed yet has cover any round in which he attacks or casts a spell from the wall. It grants my character an advantage, but it doesn't completely cut his foes off from fighting back.

That's just my approach as a player, though from a developer's perspective, using the incorporeal rules makes a lot of sense.

I have no issue with him having some cover but he was claiming total.cover off his turn and improved while he cast.

Sczarni

I would say that character needs to wave his hands and target person with a spell and for this to work, at least half of body would need to be "out". Being half in the ground would grant him regular cover (+4 AC, +2 Reflex Saves).

Adam

Grand Lodge

Remember that he has to move or 5' step out of the ground far enough to see his target, and then use his Standard, usually, to cast, so he wouldn't have any way to get back into the ground.

Now, if he is using Quickened spells, then he could "come up", cast swiftly, and then "sink back down" in a single turn, using a move and a standard for movement.

And, of course, he can still be targeted by a Readied action when he comes up.

Even with Tremorsense, he only knows where people moving are, not who is where, especially if the combat is very fluid.

Shadow Lodge

I would tell that player he can have one or the other but not both.
He is using earth glide so he follows the rules for earth glide. He is not an incorporeal creature so does not get to use the rules for an incorporeal creature.

Next time you gm for that guy I would tell him if he wants to be able to cast at a target he can have improved cover (ie he is 9/10ths out of the wall/ground and able to cast because he has line of effect) or he can have total cover and cannot cast anything but personal spells because he only has line of effect to himself.

8 AC is nothing to shack a stick at, he has cover so he doesnt provoke while casting, and can very quickly get out of all harms way. If he throws up a stink about it direct him to the forms.


My two cents in my own game:

An earth gliding druid who attacked with slams, a touch, or a ray or something with the 50% miss chance from using tremorsense instead of sight would probably work like the incorporeal example (untargetable except while attacking, and then cover). If the druid wants line of effect, line of sight, or the ability to target anything other than with a touch, then they would need to be out of the wall (to requote the incorporeal rules from the OP but add an additional line that comes just before for context):

incorporeal wrote:
It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge.

Also, in the "in the wall reaching out" mode, I would imagine that the druid's ability to communicate with the party in either direction, including to command any animal companion, is virtually non-existent. Perhaps in a home game the other characters can come up with a foot-tapping morse code to reveal information to the druid via tremorsense, though that seems like it would take actions beyond free.


andreww wrote:
OK, I was running beacon Below today and had a level 11 Druid who spent most of his time in the form of an Earth Elemental which also granted him Earth Glide...

I think a healthy approach to these types of problems is to ask yourself, what is fair on either side of the screen? How would your players feel if an NPC Druid used this technique?

One thing that I think people frequently forget is that the rules in the game are rules for a game. They are not rules meant to simulate a reality. There isn't a real world which evolved with Druids who could cast from Earth Glide with Cover. If there were, it would probably a whole helluva lot different than the one we're playing in.

While it may seem appropriate to try and match up RAW with the facts of the situation, if the RAW never contemplated the situation you have encountered, then blindly adhering to it will do more harm than good. The game is predicated on fairness. Does it seem fair to let a Druid cast with total cover? Who else can pull of such a feat at this level or higher? What is the Druid giving up tactically?

Again, how fair/fun do you think the players would feel if an NPC got to pull that stunt? If you think the players would be just as accepting if it were used against them, then by all means...

To answer your question, I would probably rule that while subsumed by the earth, a caster is unable to cast. In order to cast, the caster must be fully exposed. If a player could produce a source that suggested elementals with class levels could cast with total cover from their elements, then I would reverse my position.

Liberty's Edge

I'm on the "use the rules for incorporeal creatures" side. I feel improved cover is probably a bit too much of an advantage.

Rogue Eidolon wrote:
50% miss chance from using tremorsense

Common misconception, largely I suspect due to the difference between Blindsense and Blindsight. As long as you're touching the ground it works like Blindsight.

Tremorsense wrote:
Tremorsense (Ex) A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground.


Not sure how well this would work, but here's how I would handle this:

"as easily as a fish swims through water"

Hmmm...wait for it...wait for it...wait for it...underwater combat rules!

So, let's see:

You can't move out and back in to cast spells, unless you have some special ability that would let you cast in the middle of moving.

You could stay all the way in with total cover, but wouldn't have line of effect to land [because it's still earth, not water]. You could still cast touch spells on creatures outside of the earth, but you'd take a -2 penalty on attack rolls, and you'd have a 50% miss chance. I would rule that you can be hit with a readied action when attacking that way, but you'd have improved cover at the time.

You can stay mostly in, in which case you would have improved cover. You can cast spells normally, but you still take a -2 penalty on attack rolls.

Does that seem like how it would work underwater? If so, I think that could be a reasonable way to run it

And by the way, a creature still has concealment once you've pinpointed its location, so tremorsense doesn't negate that.


DrSwordopolis wrote:


Rogue Eidolon wrote:
50% miss chance from using tremorsense

Common misconception, largely I suspect due to the difference between Blindsense and Blindsight. As long as you're touching the ground it works like Blindsight.

Tremorsense wrote:
Tremorsense (Ex) A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground.

Let's look at Blindsense side-by-side.

Blindsense wrote:
The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to pinpoint the location of a creature within range of its blindsense ability

Shadow Lodge

@DrSwordopolis: do you have a source to back that up? I asked JJ a while back about how tremorsense is different from blindsight and he told me more or less that all tremorsense does is tell the user what squares they are in without needing line of effect. All cover and concealment still apply, you just know what square/s the target is dancing around in.


I would actually say you should use underwater rules. I mean, earthglide does say this:

Quote:
Earth Glide (Ex) A burrowing earth elemental can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing earth elemental flings the elemental back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.

So why not treat it like you are fighting some crazy mermaid while you are stand on the beach or on a small boat? So lets check out underwater combat, cover, and casting.

Attacks from Land wrote:
Characters swimming, floating, or treading water on the surface, or wading in water at least chest deep, have improved cover (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves) from opponents on land. Land-bound opponents who have freedom of movement effects ignore this cover when making melee attacks against targets in the water. A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects.
Spellcasting Underwater wrote:
Casting spells while submerged can be difficult for those who cannot breathe underwater. A creature that cannot breathe water must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell underwater (this is in addition to the caster level check to successfully cast a fire spell underwater). Creatures that can breathe water are unaffected and can cast spells normally. Some spells might function differently underwater, subject to GM discretion.

Notice that lovely concentration check. It is not super hard to pass, eventually, but it is still a nice little nerf.

Anyway, we also see the rules for improved/total cover. Since the character is spell casting (and probably has an exposed arm), they would likely get considered 'at the surface', and as such only get a boat load of AC and reflex bonus.

EDIT: OH, darn, you ninja'd me Avoron.


Underwater rules seem like a reasonable approach.


Yeah, underwater rules seem to fit nicely.

One thing I would like to note, the polymorph subschool description says that if you change into a form that can burrow, you can breath while burrowing, so I believe you wouldn't need to make the concentration check.


Avoron wrote:

Yeah, underwater rules seem to fit nicely.

One thing I would like to note, the polymorph subschool description says that if you change into a form that can burrow, you can breath while burrowing, so I believe you wouldn't need to make the concentration check.

Whoops, missed the breathing thing (cause....underwater rules? Really?) Yeah, that does seem like it removes that element. Too bad.

Might serve well to get the half dozen other class options that give earthglide. I think there is an oracle mystery, a sorcerer bloodline, and maybe a subschool for wizards. Since all of those are full casters... yeah, adding a hitch might help.

EDIT- oh, and for the original problem. Overall, I would prevent the druid from casting while inside the ground under the same logic that the caster can't usually cast spells into the room next door (unless it is some long distance spell designed for that, of course). If he just wants to chill underground and buff himself though...then that seems alright.


lemeres,

You and I are of similar thought. Unfortunately, the rules work against us. The underwater rules seems to contemplate or at least parallel the Earth Glide situation. As such, I can see no reason why the treatment shouldn't be exactly the same as underwater.

While a creature cannot lean out of their square in any dimension, the line of effect rules work like line of sight and I don't see anything preventing line of effect if the druid can target from any corner of their square.

Liberty's Edge

John Compton wrote:

I have a druid character who sometimes pulls a similar trick, and I just assume that he is exposed yet has cover any round in which he attacks or casts a spell from the wall. It grants my character an advantage, but it doesn't completely cut his foes off from fighting back.

That's just my approach as a player, though from a developer's perspective, using the incorporeal rules makes a lot of sense.

I treat him as hiding in water (but freedom of movement don't help attacking him). Simplier than using the incorporeal rules.

Andrew Christian wrote:

It may not make much actual sense on a 3D scale, but every medium-sized creature takes up a 5' cube. Yes, even the nearly 7' tall half-orcs only take up a 5' cube in height.

Source for that statement?

I see a lot of rules about squares when speaking of the area our character occupy, nothing about cubes,

Shadow Lodge

Everything is in cubes in pathfinders. We only see the 2D representation on the play mat, in actuality the characters are working in 3 dimensions. To keep it simple a medium/small sized creature occupy a 5' square in the 2D, or a 5' cube in the 3D.


NN 959, if you are completely underground, line of effect is blocked, because there is a solid object between you and your target.

If you are partly underground, you have improved cover, not total cover.


Practically speaking, yes, but mechanically speaking no. When you determine line of effect, you use the same rules of line of sight. Line of Sight allows me to choose any corner of my square for determining cover. So if LoE uses the same rules then I can fire from the corner of my square.

To clarify by example, if you are standing in a smoke filled square, you don't suffer concealment issues when firing out of your square because you fire from a corner for determining cover and concealment. That logic applied to line of effect means I don't have to fire through the earth.

I won't complain if a dev tells me I'm wrong, mind you.

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