Hello Everyone,
Intro:
First about myself (in relation to Pathfinder). I have been interested in DnD since AD&D 2nd edition but I have not been able to play other than PC games. Now that I am done with school I am starting to get some more free time and I would like to spend some of it with my family telling amazing stores (no, not the TV series).
Wow is Pathfinder a deep (and I mean DEEP) game. It can be a bit daunting. I guess I could just roll up core class toons and run with it but I can't quite get myself to do that. I have done a good bit of research and would like some of your thoughts on some issues I am having. I want them to shine, so there will be some crunch, but I am not going for the max of the max build for each character. They will get a few extra perks, but I figure their lack of strategy and tactics will even the playing field out a bit. =)
Story:
On a side note, we have ran though the Basic Box 5 or so times to get them (and me) familiar with many of the rules. Right now I will be running my 2nd grader, 3rd grader, and wife (2 toons) though Crypt of the Everflame, then Masks of the Living God, and then City of Golden Death for their first real foray into Pathfinder. They will only get to level 6, 7, or 8 and then retire. (The kids want to play a Druid and Summoner in Dragon's Demand next. I thought I would keep things simple for their first big adventure.) No multiclassing this time.
Relevant House Rules:
Wand of Many Mini Things
1hp heal unlimited charges (keep action up, camping down)
As they level the item will grow with little (mini) magic abilities
Players:
Oracle (2nd grader)
--Battle, STR, Bardiche, Reach, Enlarge
Rogue (3rd grader)
--Brute, STR, TWF, Orc Double Axe, Bite
Pally (wife main)
--TWF, CHA, Scimitar/Spiked Shield, Smite/day (Normal + CHA)
Sorcerer (wife alt)
--Background buffing build (wow they are intimidating to build)
Character Needing Help (please)
1/2 Orc Rogue
Role:
TWF Brute Rogue that has many attacks (hence his bite). He will use acrobatics to get into position to flank. He is also our group's sneaky, stealthy trap disabler and is the smartest one of the bunch. Smart 3rd grader, but still a 3rd grader so I want to keep things simple(ish).
Build:
Straight Rogue
Abilities:
STR: 18 +4
DEX: 15 +2
CON: 14 +2
INT: 12 +1
WIS: 14 +2
CHA: 7 -2
Traits:
Tusked
Reactionary
Attribute Plan:
4: DEX
8: DEX
Feet Plan:
1: Two Weapon Fighting
2: -na-
3: Double Slice
4: -na-
5: Combat Reflexes
6: -na-
7: Step Up
8: -na-
9: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Rogue Plan:
1: -na-
2: Weapon Training (Orc Double Axe)
3: -na-
4: Combat Trick --> Improved Initivie
5: -na-
6: Fast Stealth
7: -na-
8: Resiliency
9: -na-
Spells:
-na-
Gear:
Armour: Studded Leather +3AC (-1 Armour Check)
Weapon: Orc Double Axe (2h) +4ATK 1d8+6DMG
Weapon: Orc Double Axe (1h) +4ATK 1d8+4DMG
Weapon: Orc Double Axe (TWF Primary) +2ATK 1d8+4DMG
Weapon: Orc Double Axe (TWF Secondary) +2ATK 1d8+2DMG
Weapon: Bite (if only attack) +4ATK 1d4+6DMG
Weapon: Bite (full round) -1ATK 1d4+2DMG
HP: 10
AC: 15
Questions:
Q1: He loves bite and it fits well, but are there any better traits than +2 Init?
Q2: Studded Leather has -1 for Armour Check penalty, is that ok for a 1st level character? As he will be in melee often, I went with studded for the 1 extra AC vs. leather.
Q3: I stumbled into the Orc Double Axe after I was "done". Wow it looks cool and it has great synergy with his design. Did I manage to get all of the possible attacks, attack bonuses, and damage right?
Q4: I also stumbled into Tusked for bite after that. haHA! Who says research is boring. Did I manage to get all of the possible attacks, attack bonuses, and damage right?
Thanks for any and all input!
Braxon
If he's going to be going for the flank all the time, you might like the Combat Trait "Dirty fighter":
Dirty Fighter: <flavor text>. When you hit a foe you are flanking, you deal 1 additional point of damage (this damage is added to your base damage, and is multiplied on a critical hit). This additional damage is a trait bonus.
I think I am going to stick with only 2 traits. If I go 3, Dirty Fighter is in for sure.
+2 Init or +1 dmg for all flank attacks? /ponder
Braxon
Toons?
Sorry,
Toons = characters. I really don't know where I got that from. =)
Braxon
I think it would be nice to give him some more knobs and levers during combat. Stuff like Offensive Defense will grant him an AC bonus against one or two opponents, but he must choose an opponent and he must choose whether he wants to spread his attacks for AC bonus against both or just focus on one to make sure he drops him -- or some times, drop an enemy and get the AC against another.
That kind of thing makes a character more engaging in my opinion, no?
For useful feats, consider Orc Weapon Expertise for Defender, +2 AC is nothing to scoff at.
I think it would be nice to give him some more knobs and levers during combat. Stuff like Offensive Defense will grant him an AC bonus against one or two opponents, but he must choose an opponent and he must choose whether he wants to spread his attacks for AC bonus against both or just focus on one to make sure he drops him -- or some times, drop an enemy and get the AC against another.
That kind of thing makes a character more engaging in my opinion, no?
It does but I want to keep things more on the simple side this first go around. I think one of the major issues that we will face is bogging down and loosing that "fun" feeling.
For useful feats, consider Orc Weapon Expertise for Defender, +2 AC is nothing to scoff at.
Oh nice! That would help with his AC quite a bit. Hmm, the only place to place that would be to swap out Step Up. If I am seeing it right.
Thanks,
Braxton
kestral287,
Thanks for the info!
Braxon
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He cant use an orc double axe.
Weapon Familiarity: Half-orcs are proficient with greataxes and falchions and treat any weapon with the word “orc” in its name as a martial weapon.
Rogues do not get martial weapon profeciency. Unless he dips fighter or burns a feat to become profecient in the orc double axe, he can't use it without non proficient penalty if -4 to all attack rolls.
lv 2 feat should be combat trick, to gain exotic weapon profeciency (orc double axe). Before that he can use daggers.
combat trick cannot be used to take improved initiative as improved initiative is not a combat feat.
Half orcs can give up their orc ferocity to get toothy which gives a primary bite attack, though with weapon use, he will still take a -5 to hit on it. The tusked trait can be replaced by what some ofvtge rest have suggested here.
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Take the swashbuckler rogue archetype. Proficiency with one 'martial' weapon (orc double axe) at level 1 and you can take combat trick twice.
If you have time you may want to consider Slayer from ACG. It is less dependant on SA/Flanking and you can, with slayer talents, take the 2 weapon fighting feats from ranger without needing to have the qualifing Dex. One of the slayer talents is also trap finding.
The slayer builds a much sturdier and brutal rogue than the rogue.
Feats off the top of my head:
1HD: Power Attack
2ST: Trapfinding or Ranger Combat Style - TWF
3HD: Extra Slayer Talent - Which ever you didn't take at 2nd
4ST: Rogue Talent - Trap Spotter
5HD: Double Slice
6ST: Improved Two Weapon fighting
Season to taste
If you are set on using the double axe I would suggest taking Power Attack for the turns that you have to move and cannot get a full attack in.
The Heirloom Weapon trait gives you proficiency in a single martial weapon too.
Yeah, Heirloom weapon or otherwise just granting him the proficiency because Rogue proficiencies need some love.
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As Mellok notes, you could let him go Slayer instead of Rogue. That gives Martial Weapon Proficiency, lets him put his level-up points into Str instead of Dex, and is probably just flat-out better without being much more complicated (it has Studied Target).
You could have the following Feat and Talent progression:
Feet Plan:
1: Two Weapon Fighting
2: -na-
3: Improved Initiative
4: -na-
5: Combat Reflexes
6: -na-
7: Step Up
8: -na-
9: Whatever you like.
Rogue Plan:
1: -na-
2: Two Weapon Fighting Style (Double Slice)
3: -na-
4: Weapon Training (Orc Double Axe)
5: -na-
6: Two Weapon Fighting Style (Improved Two Weapon Fighting)
7: -na-
8: Fast Stealth
9: -na-
Throw Trapfinding in at 2 or 4 instead of Weapon Training if you want that trick in his repertoire. You could also get an Extra Slayer Talent Feat at 5th or 7th, pushing those Feats back and getting Fast Stealth early.
Secret Wizard: I think you can paint with a broader brush than that. ;) Rogues need love in general.
I would also second the suggestions to go Slayer. Slayers make better Rogues than Rogues do. (In fact, most things make better Rogues than Rogues do, unfortunately.) I think it makes more sense for this build too.
Also, if you haven't discovered it already, www.d20pfsrd.com is a great resource for seeing what all these other archetypes, classes, feats, etc are that we are mentioning. I still am a proponent of buying the books that you find a lot of these resources in, but this allows you to see what resources you want to buy the books for. It is a great business model, IMO.
Oh, there is also a Trait that gives Trapfinding.
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Another +1 to slayer.
In the family campaign that I am in now, a child player wanted to play a rogue. We steered her to the Slayer class but just called it a rogue. You can get trapfinding and trapspotting as rogue talents with a slayer.
Are slayers as good with trap spotting as a rogue? They are slightly less good at this job. But they can still do it.
However, they are better at EVERYTHING else. Kids don't like to feel useless in combat. I advise going slayer for a better rounded character that your kid will enjoy playing.
Hmm
It is campaign specific and while I can understand the sentiment of not allowing it, I would. The only campaign specific things that I typically disallow are things that only make sense in a particular setting. That is something that seems generally useful and has no flavor leaning it towards a specific setting. These are all opinions, of course. I am just presenting the options available. YMMV
Toons?Sorry,
Toons = characters. I really don't know where I got that from. =)
Perhaps from the RPG "Toon"? Anyway, altho it does mean PC, it connotates a PC who is disposable, with little background or RP as in "Yeah, so Knuckles the XXI is dead, I got the new & improved Knuckles XXII right here, and then Knuckles XXIII and so forth."
We used to refer to characters in the old school MMOs as "toons". Like in Ultima Online and EverQuest. In fact, I haven't heard of it much outside of those games. I'm not sure where the original term came from though.
He cant use an orc double axe.
Weapon Familiarity: Half-orcs are proficient with greataxes and falchions and treat any weapon with the word “orc” in its name as a martial weapon.
Rogues do not get martial weapon profeciency. Unless he dips fighter or burns a feat to become profecient in the orc double axe, he can't use it without non proficient penalty if -4 to all attack rolls.
Crap, good catch. I even went to prove you wrong and looked up Battle Mystery. That is not a Rogue. /sigh Thanks! I may give it to him anyway as Secret Wizard as an heirloom weapon (from his 'ma) but first I will have to look into Slayer I think.
combat trick cannot be used to take improved initiative as improved initiative is not a combat feat.
Doh! 'nother good find! That actually is nice so I don't have to burn Combat Trick for it. I will need to again look into Slayer first.
Half orcs can give up their orc ferocity to get toothy which gives a primary bite attack, though with weapon use, he will still take a -5 to hit on it. The tusked trait can be replaced by what some ofvtge rest have suggested here.
He really loves the Bite concept but I hear Orc Ferocity is an amazing feet. Any thoughts?
Thanks!
Braxon
We used to refer to characters in the old school MMOs as "toons". Like in Ultima Online and EverQuest. In fact, I haven't heard of it much outside of those games. I'm not sure where the original term came from though.
Yup, now that you mention it. Toons came from EQ. The four of us played that last Winter for our RPG fix. I would love to move on to Pathfinder (setup takes a we bit longer however).
Regards,
Braxon
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A lot of people frown on calling Pathfinder characters "toons"; there's other threads that talk about it. People who ask you what it means are usually being polite about it - they likely already know.
Reactionary is considered one of the best traits in the game.
Pathfinder is deep, but you'd be surprised how quickly some people can pick it up, even (and maybe especially) kids if they're digging their teeth into it. People bounce rules off each other all the time as well, augmenting everyone's system mastery. Don't be afraid to let them jump into something that seems complex if they seem to think they can handle it.
Take the swashbuckler rogue archetype. Proficiency with one 'martial' weapon (orc double axe) at level 1 and you can take combat trick twice.
I don't know anything about the Swashbuckler archetype. I will look into that.
Thanks,
Braxon
PS. I am going to have to make myself a list of Action Items. =p
A lot of people frown on calling Pathfinder characters "toons"; there's other threads that talk about it. People who ask you what it means are usually being polite about it - they likely already know.
Subculture's do's and don'ts. Interesting...
Reactionary is considered one of the best traits in the game.
Pathfinder is deep, but you'd be surprised how quickly some people can pick it up, even (and maybe especially) kids if they're digging their teeth into it. People bounce rules off each other all the time as well, augmenting everyone's system mastery. Don't be afraid to let them jump into something that seems complex if they seem to think they can handle it.
I may get only 1 shot at this so I would prefer to error on faster game play even if it ends up being a tish on the shallow side vs. deep but very slow game play. After this 1st story arch, I can direct game play faster or more intricate depending on the players preference.
Thanks,
Braxon
Mellok, Deadmanwalking, Lune, and Hmm,
Well I think I will be looking into Slayer for sure. It sounds like what he is wanting to do. When I build one I look at your guy's advice and report back on what I come up with.
Thanks so much!
Braxon
Also, if you haven't discovered it already, www.d20pfsrd.com is a great resource for seeing what all these other archetypes, classes, feats, etc are that we are mentioning. I still am a proponent of buying the books that you find a lot of these resources in, but this allows you to see what resources you want to buy the books for. It is a great business model, IMO.
I use www.d20pfsrd.com all the time. I also have many (12) hardback Pathfinder books. I think that is quite a bit considering we haven't really "played" Pathfinder much. =) The art is amazing and something is just awesome about a high quality book in one's hands to read.
Regards,
Braxon
Braxon,
I hope you guys have a lot of fun with it and that our suggestions are helpful. Feel free to come back any time. I can speak from experience in saying that I agree that kids can pick up the game quickly. Well, depending on the kid, of course. My son is 12yrs old and we talk to each other about character builds as one of our favorite past times. He actually has turned out to be very insightful.
Thanks Lune,
Your guy's suggestions are _very_ helpful.
This week has been a bit busy. We had a birthday party and our furnace went out. (same day) I figured out what was causing the furnace issue (motor capacitor) and we celebrated Minion Grace's 4th birthday.
I just found out my kids are doing Hour of Code next week so I need to get their new Arduino kits broken out so we can mess around a bit this weekend. Once that is done it is my goal to get all four characters done before Monday.
Regards,
Braxon
What? I don't approach everything a teacher...
Let me go out of order. I can't say how _strongly_ I agree! =)
Have you considered giving the 8-year old feat choices at level-up? It would impact the power, but how cool to say, "your character levels, so you can pick form these three abilities. You can always pick one of the other later, but which one seems most fun, right now?" At eight he's totally ready to make choices and see how they work out in play.
I will have to think on that. We first played the Beginner Box's mission Blackfang. Then we played it 3-4 more times to anchor the rules down. The oldest wants to play a Summoner but I don't think he is ready for that just yet although he has read all about the class.
My goal for their first story arch is to have a fun time. For right now I feel that includes fast play even though the rules are new to all of us. However it wouldn't slow things done really at all if he were to pick from the feats that are all ready in his build. Great idea, I will have to ponder on that. Maybe if he read up on all the feat choices he would qualify to pick them when he levels up. /evil grin
Thanks,
Braxon
Hello Everyone,
We actually played!
My son's 1st level 1/2 orc rogue turned out to be very fun for him. He has an Orc Double Axe and has bite. The only thing he loves more than a Full Round Action is his little sister who is a Rock Hound (think Fighter BAB, Fighter # Attack, Magical, Bodyguard Companion, that blinks and stone walks). She often blinks right behind the bad guy for flanking attack. He really feels he shines on dishing out the damage.
Wearing only Studded Leather he is a bit hesitant about pulling scouting duty and it make his very edgy but that is most of the fun!
Thanks for everyone's help!
Braxon