I showed this Rite Publishing Race and Class to my DM and he fell in love with it immediately. I also love the idea of playing a dragon, but now have the problem of optimizing it so that it might be functional in dungeons later, due to its size increase (every 4 levels) and all that implies (fitting in dungeons, attribute changes, npc interaction, etc.). This can be remedied with either of its later two shape shifting abilities and some defensive abilities), but takes away space for other things that I might want at certain levels.
My question is how I should optimize my dragon so that it will be as dungeon ready as possible at higher levels, but be as close to my "idea" for my dragon as possible. My idea is being that of a Copper Dragon look-alike that tries to function as such (ability wise and the fact that most copper dragons are joke cracking, high charisma reptiles), while still being as powerful as possible.
Requirements: Draconic Essence- Witty, Draconic Weapon- Breath Weapon
Suggested Wants: Copper Dragon Esque abilites and maybe some Natural Sorcery
Please place suggestions and arguments for suggestions.
Thank you for your suggestions and time.
P.S. Extra Draconic Defense and Extra Draconic Ability add one from the list of options while Extra Draconic Attack adds extra uses only.
Here's what I have so far... Though I am open to change because I don't know if this is the best possible turn out for my idea:
1st - Predators Claws, Witty, breath weapon >Feat - Persuasive
2nd - Enchanted Scales
3rd - Elemental Affinity (Earth), Elemental Matery (Earth) >Feat - Extra Draconic Ability (Elemental Mastery (Earth))
4th - Dracomorphosis (Medium)
5th - Hardened Scales >Feat - Improved Natural Attack (bite)
6th - Animal Form (I don't know if this is such a good idea at this level... Should I have it here or at a later level?)
7th - Baleful Glare >Feat - Extra Draconic Defense (Thickened Scales)
8th - Dracomorphosis (Large), Spell Resistance 3 + Level
9th - 20th I have no clue as of yet.
Attributes are kinda hard to do for this, though I'll have a list up later unless you guys beat me to it in the suggestions...
As 3pp is allowed, roll aberrant aegis or some sort of daevic or any 3pp dragon that's actually good, take dragon-related powers and describe your character as looking draconic. Rite dragons are simply bad and end up with hit penalties from size not offset by STR increases, while having only 2 STR over barbarian.
If other 3pp is not allowed, any combination of sorc, bloodrager and dragon disciple will do.
If you have cooperative DM, make a synth with unremovable eidolon. You can strip it of spellcasting and summon monster and still be better than Rite "dragons".
As 3pp is allowed, roll aberrant aegis or some sort of daevic or any 3pp dragon that's actually good, take dragon-related powers and describe your character as looking draconic. Rite dragons are simply bad and end up with hit penalties from size not offset by STR increases, while having only 2 STR over barbarian.
If other 3pp is not allowed, any combination of sorc, bloodrager and dragon disciple will do.
If you have cooperative DM, make a synth with unremovable eidolon. You can strip it of spellcasting and summon monster and still be better than Rite "dragons".
Thank you for your suggestions, but I actually like what this race/class is trying to accomplish. I do in fact have the 3rd party psionic books, but I don't see how the aegis would emulate this and I have no idea what a daevic is. If you do have suggestions for other 3rd party Dragon PCs, could you please list them?
I am well aware of what pure Paizo Pathfinder is capable of and have played a few of those classes. I however cannot use a synth as it is under a non-negotiable bann from our table that I agree with. Thank you for your time.
I'm sorry for not stating earlier, but I am playing a 1-20 game with maybe some mythic later on.
Here is my attribute line-up. I might switch dex increase times for cha increase times if I get natural sorcery, or do I really need int? I just did it for 1 extra skill point. Oh and just to clarify, we are doing a non-standard 20 point buy that does point for point exchange instead of using the table.
Taninim ("Witty" Copper)
<- Level One -> gains 1 ability point every 4 levels (4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 20th)
+0 str - 14 (+2)
-2 dex - 16 (+3)
+2 con - 16 (+3)
+0 int - 12 (+1)
+0 wis - 10 (+0)
+2 cha - 14 (+2)
<- Level Four ->
+2 str - 16 (+3)
+1 dex - 17 (+3)
+0 con - 16 (+3)
+0 int - 12 (+1)
+0 wis - 10 (+0)
+0 cha - 14 (+2)
<- Level Eight ->
+2 str - 18 (+4)
-1 dex - 16 (+3)
+2 con - 18 (+4)
+0 int - 12 (+1)
+0 wis - 10 (+0)
+0 cha - 14 (+2)
<- Level Twelve ->
+2 str - 20 (+5)
-2 dex - 14 (+2)
+0 con - 18 (+4)
+0 int - 12 (+1)
+0 wis - 10 (+0)
+1 cha - 15 (+2)
<- Level Sixteen ->
+2 str - 22 (+6)
-2 dex - 12 (+1)
+2 con - 20 (+5)
+0 int - 12 (+1)
+0 wis - 10 (+0)
+1 cha - 16 (+3)
<- Level Twenty ->
+2 str - 24 (+7)
-2 dex - 10 (+0)
+0 con - 20 (+5)
+0 int - 12 (+1)
+1 wis - 11 (+0)
+0 cha - 16 (+3)
remember you're not required to take the archetypes, you can in fact get 4/5 levels of a class, and then pick a normal class to become medium, or 8/10 to become large, etc.
like 8 levels of the paragon class, then just 12 of a normal barbarian, or a normal sorcerer, etc.
as for spell casting only Faeries if I remember can really get spell casting going.
if you have no idea what i mean by archetypes, you did not in fact buy the book and i would recommend it, as it's filled with a lot of lore for the taninim that i thought was a good read and additional rules. like archetypes for every class that give them size increases every 5 levels as the cost of some abilities or offsetting them by a few levels. like, Monk – Replace the monk’s flurry of blows, perfect
self, and timeless body class abilities, and bonus feats
gained at 1st and 14th level.
I'm playing a paragon/investigator, which means I have extracts, which are completely fine for a Taninim to have, or even Golarion's dragons. Just because someone doesn't enjoy wearing clothes like lesser races doesn't mean their foreign to the use of tools.
from what I saw, it seems a paragon is best at being a martial CC power house, and tank. You might also want to look into burrowing abilities if you're going to be underground for a while(Taninim grow based on their own mind, they do not grow completely randomly or according to "true" dragons).
lore wise Taninim are basically, what you might consider more direct descendants of the first dragon, than "true" dragon's, which is why their physical form reflects their mentality, as opposed to their "true" dragon brethren. (you can change alignment like normal PCs, but when you do you molt...)
remember you're not required to take the archetypes, you can in fact get 4/5 levels of a class, and then pick a normal class to become medium, or 8/10 to become large, etc.
like 8 levels of the paragon class, then just 12 of a normal barbarian, or a normal sorcerer, etc.
as for spell casting only Faeries if I remember can really get spell casting going.
if you have no idea what i mean by archetypes, you did not in fact buy the book and i would recommend it, as it's filled with a lot of lore for the taninim that i thought was a good read and additional rules. like archetypes for every class that give them size increases every 5 levels as the cost of some abilities or offsetting them by a few levels. like, Monk – Replace the monk’s flurry of blows, perfect
self, and timeless body class abilities, and bonus feats
gained at 1st and 14th level.I'm playing a paragon/investigator, which means I have extracts, which are completely fine for a Taninim to have, or even Golarion's dragons. Just because someone doesn't enjoy wearing clothes like lesser races doesn't mean their foreign to the use of tools.
from what I saw, it seems a paragon is best at being a martial CC power house, and tank. You might also want to look into burrowing abilities if you're going to be underground for a while(Taninim grow based on their own mind, they do not grow completely randomly or according to "true" dragons).
lore wise Taninim are basically, what you might consider more direct descendants of the first dragon, than "true" dragon's, which is why their physical form reflects their mentality, as opposed to their "true" dragon brethren. (you can change alignment like normal PCs, but when you do you molt...)
I do in fact own the book and I was trying to do the straight dragon build, but... maybe I should think about using the archetype and multiclass. I also enjoy the lore about the taninim and how they function because of it, but I also kinda wanted to emulate their similarities to the true dragons of golarian. To tell you the truth, I just kinda wished that the Exemplar was easier to make decisions with.
What decisions make sense for my idea? Are those decisions actually worth it or do I pick them for role-playing? At what level do I make these decisions?
Sorry for my rambling. Thank you for your suggestions and I'll think them over.
I actually thought of a hilarious roleplay experience.
step 1. get GM to start game at level 3
step 2. get humanoid form, get GM to allow it to have duration 24 hr
step 3. tell all the other PCs you are a human fighter.
step 4. be a human, act human with some particularities, but then when s~*+ hits the fan, BAM, dragon, ultra beefed up, players shocked out of their mind.
step 5. cry because GM said no to either step 1 or 2
ANYWAY. tank out with spell resistance and DR, shouldn't be too many non-spell attacks doing magical damage, unless GM gives all the archers arrows of +1, :/. enchanted scales to get that deflection bonus to not get steam rolled by any courageous gunslingers.
if you're going to be going underground and not be claustrophobic as hell as a dragon you probably have earth - elemental affinity which gives you the ability to travel through the ground and breath dirt. you also do not care about size anymore.
Use that double reach Bite with 1.5 str like nobodies business. (play it kinda like a trip build, trip your target then maul him to death)venomous bite would be good for this, but you can also go breath weapon + breath charged bite.
I recommend Complex Essence feat, for A. you get 2 choices of attributes for any breath or element based attack, and B. 2 different resistances.
instinctive spell resistance can be useful. Lithe movement if you choose to not get dirt movement. overland flight is great if you spend large amount of time above ground. predator's speed and slumber are useful as general utility, 1 is speed boost, other is no one needs to take night watch. Steel render is nice versus those poor misinformed knights.
for casting, use the sorcerer archetype, or become a wizard, and buy a VERY big book.
for feats, get related monster feats, but get probably 2 lines of combat maneuver feats. I believe you're better at using maneuvers on people at those sizes than hitting them. get like trip and sunder, sunder half for you to eat through walls and buildings. wouldn't get power attack unless you find someway to make your to-hit scale well with size, or maybe tripping people is enough.
edit: oh yeah for magic, there's always UMD, which i honestly like the idea of a dragon carrying around magic items instead of armor. :P
Regarding the size issue, I'd stay with Draconic Exemplar up to 7th level, so you don't get the 8th level dracomorphosis to large size, then take Trueblood Sorcerer (Copper Draconic Bloodline) for 13+ levels. Or bet yet, stop at 4th level Draconic Exemplar, for 16 levels of Trueblood Sorcerer, so you'll gain 8th level spells at least by 20th level.
I'm looking to allow a Draconic Exemplar PC as part of a flying adventures campaign I plan to run, but the homebrew AP involves aerial combat for nearly all of it, so size issues and dungeons aren't really a problem our table will deal with much. The other PCs are a wyrm riding cavalier, or classes with animal companions or bondable animals. The Draconic Exemplar would serve as a mount for a party spellcaster who lacks skills at riding a mount, being securely bound to saddle with all flight decisions up to the dragon, not the rider.
I actually thought of a hilarious roleplay experience.
step 1. get GM to start game at level 3
step 2. get humanoid form, get GM to allow it to have duration 24 hr
step 3. tell all the other PCs you are a human fighter.
step 4. be a human, act human with some particularities, but then when s!$% hits the fan, BAM, dragon, ultra beefed up, players shocked out of their mind.
Actually, this is one of the first things I thought of when I started making my character, but sadly....
step 5. cry because GM said no to either step 1 or 2
We are playing a a 1-20th level game.... However, the humanoid form is already of indefinite duration for three times per day. So something like that could work. I like the way you think.
if you're going to be going underground and not be claustrophobic as hell as a dragon you probably have earth - elemental affinity which gives you the ability to travel through the ground and breath dirt. you also do not care about size anymore.
Good point.... Maybe this won't be difficult for dungeons after all. I'll Talk with my DM.
I can see it now: Tunneling dragon digs underneath dungeon and pops his head out of the ground and walls when needed.... actually kinda scary if you think about it... "Hide in here! There's no way that dragon outside could get us in this small dungeon complex!.... Why is the ground shaking?!"
also, extra draconic defense and gift are a thing, if you choose the multiclass route. also extra weaponry but that only gives you additional uses, which is still useful, but your weaponry would have poor saves by late game(no reason to get level 7 if you ask me).
also apparently there's a gift at post level 9 to allow you to behave like a sorcerer kinda, but you have to keep picking it and it only gives you a few spells known and low caster level, so not really offensive option oriented.
also apparently there's a gift at post level 9 to allow you to behave like a sorcerer kinda, but you have to keep picking it and it only gives you a few spells known and low caster level, so not really offensive option oriented.
I didn't think that natural sorcery was supposed to be used for combat anyway. You can get up to 6 sorcerer levels if you take it three times and you don't get anything else besides the spells. I'm guessing its so you can have a little bit of utility at higher levels, but I guess you can get most of that from magic items or your teammates if they are spell casters.
I'm looking to allow a Draconic Exemplar PC as part of a flying adventures campaign I plan to run, but the homebrew AP involves aerial combat for nearly all of it, so size issues and dungeons aren't really a problem our table will deal with much. The other PCs are a wyrm riding cavalier, or classes with animal companions or bondable animals. The Draconic Exemplar would serve as a mount for a party spellcaster who lacks skills at riding a mount, being securely bound to saddle with all flight decisions up to the dragon, not the rider.
Almost sounds like DnD second edition and The Council of Wyrms campaign. Wish you luck on your game.
I'll need to look into this class later. Thanks for mentioning it as I'm currently playing a dragon subtype and was curious what to do with him. Does anyone know if the Jade regent does dungeon crawls later on? Being a dragon and a large one was part of my plan, though I didn't really know how to get there.
I'll need to look into this class later. Thanks for mentioning it as I'm currently playing a dragon subtype and was curious what to do with him. Does anyone know if the Jade regent does dungeon crawls later on? Being a dragon and a large one was part of my plan, though I didn't really know how to get there.
It does indeed have a lot of miscellaneous dungeons. The only adventure path I know of that doesn't have a lot is Skulls and Shackles.
10 levels of Paragon and 10 levels of normal sorcerer might be fun, using extra gift for an extra 2 levels to get 3/4 BAB and access to 7th level spells at 20th level. Actually at 12th level you can get the third level of the gift and still be the same effective sorcerer level.
personally i think like all casters to really do magic you have to go that class completely.
so just relized the archetype has this nifty line in it.
The draconic hero is a multi-class archetype that allows
non-paragon taninim to grow in size, stature and power.
A taninim who multiclasses applies this archetype to
every applicable class, adding the class’ levels together
to determine the archetype abilities gained. The
draconic hero is automatically proficient with any
natural attacks granted by this archetype.
also, the archetype doesn't conflict with any of the unique archetypes, meaning if you wanted to focus on something more (such as casting or killing things in melee, instead of flavor it might be better to do this)
Only the Draconic Exemplar can reach collosal size, the Draconic Hero maxes out as gargantuan - that's one small difference to consider.
Only the Draconic Exemplar can reach collosal size, the Draconic Hero maxes out as gargantuan - that's one small difference to consider.
yeah but that's basically just giving you immunity to some damage type or DR5/adamantium, and +2 strength, not counting the natural weapon dice increase of course. but that's cheap change for losing 4 to your touch AC, or 2 if you have enchanted scales. especially when I think looking at it the fighter archetype is better in DPR and survivability.
got to admit though, comparing it builds to likewise heros' ability they do come up like monks, extremely tanky but low DPR, thankfully they instead will take up half the room and be nigh impossible to avoid unlike monks, so they may in fact tank more successfully.
so just relized the archetype has this nifty line in it.
The draconic hero is a multi-class archetype that allows
non-paragon taninim to grow in size, stature and power.
A taninim who multiclasses applies this archetype to
every applicable class, adding the class’ levels together
to determine the archetype abilities gained. The
draconic hero is automatically proficient with any
natural attacks granted by this archetype.
Yep. It does seem to do that doesn't it. I might have to consider...
also, the archetype doesn't conflict with any of the unique archetypes, meaning if you wanted to focus on something more (such as casting or killing things in melee, instead of flavor it might be better to do this)
What do you mean by unique? Do you mean the other archetypes in the book? If so, there is a lot of conflict... Sad conflict... Unreasonable conflict... Like the taninim fighter archetype for example.
Scaled Juggernaut: armor training 1-4 and armor mastery class
abilities, weapon training 1 -4 class abilities.
Draconic hero: Fighter – Replace the fighter’s weapon mastery class
ability, and bonus feats gained at 1st, 6th, 12th, and 18th
level.
NO CONFLICT DETECTED
Scaled Juggernaut: armor training 1-4 and armor mastery class
abilities, weapon training 1 -4 class abilities.Draconic hero: Fighter – Replace the fighter’s weapon mastery class
ability, and bonus feats gained at 1st, 6th, 12th, and 18th
level.NO CONFLICT DETECTED
.... Well, I read that wrong... I apologize..... I think I have a new Respect for the archetypes now.... Thank you for clarifying for me.
Something that I found and that I'm trying to confirm. I won't repeat it verbatim, but the fey kin alternative trait says it replaces everything that happens when when you "would" gain size with dracomorphosis with its own bonuses.... If I am reading this correctly... It means they stay tiny forever. Which is just fantastic if I decide to make a taninim Draconic Hero True Blood Sorcerer since some of that bonus is cha...
Hmm... I don't know about that yet... I guess if it is the way that it functions and no one else in the party is an arcane class... I'll think about it.
Rite Publishing confirmed. Feykin replaces all benefits and penalties with their own bonuses, it even replaces the size increase meaning they stay tiny forever.... Think of a small cute butterfly dragon that becomes more dexterous and charismatic as it levels up (as long as draconic hero is your archetype).
Rite Publishing confirmed. Feykin replaces all benefits and penalties with their own bonuses, it even replaces the size increase meaning they stay tiny forever.... Think of a small cute butterfly dragon that becomes more dexterous and charismatic as it levels up (as long as draconic hero is your archetype).
.... and the draconic exemplar class.
Oracle dip seems like a pretty wicked way to capitalize on those bonuses.
Ha! Found a sure fire way for this to work. Collar of the Crypt-Breaker from 10 Dragon Magic Items (a book intended for the taninim). This magic item gives the wearer the monster ability compression for 1 round and can be used 7 times per day. This is definitely something to grab when he gets bigger.
Thank you guys for your suggestions. I have finished the character's outline and will be playing later with my group.