CRB wrote:
You draw a heavy crossbow back by turning a small winch. Normally, operating a heavy crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a heavy crossbow with one hand at a –4 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a heavy crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two one-handed weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing. Now, in the context of the FAQ on TWF penalties titled Multiple Weapons, Extra Attacks, and Two-Weapon Fighting: If I have extra attacks from a high BAB, can I make attacks with different weapons and not incur a two-weapon fighting penalty?, and assuming that FAQ's are not supposed to be stealth-erratae but rather 'clarifications', what does that text mean? I'm at a total loss. Even if you have rapid reload, you still need two hands to reload a (non-repeating) heavy crossbow, so I don't see how you could TWF with one in each hand. Sure, with Quick Draw (and dropping the first one if you had ITWF or GTWF) you could pull it off, but that still isn't attacking with one in each hand, it's attacking with one in one hand, quick drawing another in the other hand and then attacking with that. If you can't TWF with one in each hand, to which penalties for fighting with two one handed weapons are they referring?
FAQ wrote: Yes. Basically, you only incur TWF penalties if you are trying to get an extra attack per round.
Let's assume you're a 6th-level fighter (BAB +6/+1) holding a longsword in one hand and a light mace in the other. Your possible full attack combinations without using two-weapon fighting are:
(A) longsword at +6, longsword +1
(B) mace +6, mace +1
(C) longsword +6, mace +1
(D) mace +6, longsword +1
All of these combinations result in you making exactly two attacks, one at +6 and one at +1. You're not getting any extra attacks, therefore you're not using the two-weapon fighting rule, and therefore you're not taking any two-weapon fighting penalties.
If you have Quick Draw, you could even start the round wielding only one weapon, make your main attack with it, draw the second weapon as a free action after your first attack, and use that second weapon to make your iterative attack (an "iterative attack" is an informal term meaning "extra attacks you get from having a high BAB"). As long as you're properly using the BAB values for your iterative attacks, and as long as you're not exceeding the number of attacks per round granted by your BAB, you are not considered to be using two-weapon fighting, and therefore do not take any of the penalties for two-weapon fighting.
The two-weapon fighting option in the Core Rulebook specifically refers to getting an extra attack for using a second weapon in your offhand. In the above four examples, there is no extra attack, therefore you're not using two-weapon fighting.
Using the longsword/mace example, if you use two-weapon fighting you actually have fewer options than if you aren't. Your options are (ignoring the primary/off hand penalties):
(A') primary longsword at +6, primary longsword at +1, off hand mace at +6
(B') primary mace at +6, primary mace at +1, off hand longsword at +6
In other words, once you decide you're using two-weapon fighting to get that extra attack on your turn (which you have to decide before you take any attacks on your turn), that decision locks you in to the format of "my primary weapon gets my main attack and my iterative attack, and my off hand weapon only gets the extra attack, and I apply two-weapon fighting penalties."
There are ways to get crossbows to reload themselves magically, such as the Reloading Hands spell.
Like Zhayne said. There are also several ways (prehensile hair, vestigal arm, and tentacle all come to mind) to gain additional limbs that you could use to reload with.
The text refers to holding a loaded heavy crossbow in each hand and firing them both (using the TWF rules). Just like with melee weapons you don't need to have iterative attacks to TWF.
Mind you, this only works for one round.
A character can shoot two heavy crossbows as TWF, but cannot do multiple attacks for a high BAB since it takes two hands to reload a heavy crossbow and that's impossible with their hands full.
The way I read this is that the character is carrying the two heavy crossbows already loaded and in each hand before combat. He can fire the crossbows as TWF, but after that, he either needs to drop one and reload the other or drop both and draw another weapon. Otherwise, he needs the abilities that Zhayne and Ziere espouse.
TWF in this case could be as simple as a first level character holding a heavy crossbow in each hand, firing them both in round 1, then dropping them and drawing a sword in round 2.
Orfamay Quest wrote: TWF in this case could be as simple as a first level character holding a heavy crossbow in each hand, firing them both in round 1, then dropping them and drawing a sword in round 2. Which is not only cool thematically but also reasonably smart.
Although I might disagree with "reasonably smart" since even if he took the TWF feat at level one he is then taking -8 on both attacks :P. That's beside the point though. Cheers.
Sorry to ask other questions in the same thread, but at least the first is directly related to the thread title.
Firstly, what if I am Two-Weapon Fighting with a light or hand crossbow in my off-hand and a longsword in my primary hand?
If I am using two light or hand crossbows, then I calculate my TWF penalty "as if attacking with two light weapons". However, for the TWF calculation with a longsword in my primary hand and a hand or light crossbow in the off hand , my off hand weapon isn't in the "Light" category, it's in the "Ranged" category, and there is no special case text to override that fact. Therefore, it seems by RAW I can't apply the lesser TWF penalty for having a Light weapon in my off hand. Does anyone know if there has been an FAQ/Errata resolving this issue, as it seems the RAW are in conflict with what one would assume (at least I personally would) is the intention.
Secondly, how do crossbows work with different size categories? The rules on weapon size categories only apply to the specific weapon designations Light, One-Handed and Two-Handed, of which crossbows are none since they are designated Ranged. If a medium character tries to use a large crossbow, the results seem... undefined. I am a programmer and this really bothers me. So, same question, has this been officially clarified? I could make some sort of guess that a crossbow one size category larger could be fired with two hands by a medium character at the penalty for firing a medium crossbow with one hand, and could never be reloaded by that character, but I'm really not interested in guesswork. I'd be happy to house rule it that way, but I want to know what the actual rule is anyway, as "undefined" makes my brain hurt. It seems like a pretty basic scenario that's going to come up frequently since both large humanoid NPC's and crossbows are relatively common.
I'm also wary to make guesses as to RAI since reading the firearms rules makes me doubt I can ever guess the devs' intentions. There is a very specific, crystal clear rule that changing the size category of any non-siege firearm NEVER changes how many hands are needed to fire it:
UC wrote: Inappropriately Sized Firearms: You cannot make optimum use of a firearm that is not properly sized for you. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between your size and the size of the firearm. If you are not proficient with the firearm, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies. The size of a firearm never affects how many hands you need to use to shoot it, the exception being siege firearms and Large or larger creatures. In most cases, a Large or larger creature can use a siege firearm as a two-handed firearm, but the creature takes a –4 penalty for using it this way because of its awkwardness. ...meaning a medium character can fire a gargantuan musket at a -6 penalty provided they can lift it. Should I assume the same kind of logic is intended to apply to crossbows? I'd rather not.
TLDR: Yes, I'm quite pedantic, if this annoys you, feel free to ignore my question :)
P.S. I'm hoping I have misread or missed something, as was the case in my original question, because then I can stop fretting about it.
Laureth wrote: Sorry to ask other questions in the same thread, but at least the first is directly related to the thread title.
Firstly, what if I am Two-Weapon Fighting with a light or hand crossbow in my off-hand and a longsword in my primary hand?
If I am using two light or hand crossbows, then I calculate my TWF penalty "as if attacking with two light weapons". However, for the TWF calculation with a longsword in my primary hand and a hand or light crossbow in the off hand , my off hand weapon isn't in the "Light" category, it's in the "Ranged" category, and there is no special case text to override that fact. Therefore, it seems by RAW I can't apply the lesser TWF penalty for having a Light weapon in my off hand. Does anyone know if there has been an FAQ/Errata resolving this issue, as it seems the RAW are in conflict with what one would assume (at least I personally would) is the intention.
Secondly, how do crossbows work with different size categories? The rules on weapon size categories only apply to the specific weapon designations Light, One-Handed and Two-Handed, of which crossbows are none since they are designated Ranged. If a medium character tries to use a large crossbow, the results seem... undefined. I am a programmer and this really bothers me. So, same question, has this been officially clarified? I could make some sort of guess that a crossbow one size category larger could be fired with two hands by a medium character at the penalty for firing a medium crossbow with one hand, and could never be reloaded by that character, but I'm really not interested in guesswork.
I do not believe there are any rules addressing the situation you described, so you'll need to wing it.
Orfamay Quest wrote:
I do not believe there are any rules addressing the situation you described, so you'll need to wing it.
Yeah, that's kind of how it appeared. Sigh. Genuinely thanks for the response, helps me stay sane. Seems a shame the rules don't cover these basic scenarios. I also have half an eye on me and my buddy going and playing some PFS sometime soon as the group I GM struggle to find time to all meet often, so it's quite frustrating I have no way to work out if our mooted builds are legal across tables. Thanks for taking the time to read, I know it was a long post.
Well, you could simply go with the conservative answer, taking the worst penalty of the choices. If the PFS GM opts to rule more liberally -- hey, that's a bonus.
Orfamay Quest wrote: Well, you could simply go with the conservative answer, taking the worst penalty of the choices. If the PFS GM opts to rule more liberally -- hey, that's a bonus. Yeah that's valid (although it's already a way sub-optimal build). I guess I just get frustrated when there isn't a clear answer when there easily could be. It doesn't seem like some weird corner case, it's something any class might want to try at level one with really standard weapons.
It also seems at least as likely that you will find/decide to buy an inappropriately sized ranged weapon as find/decide to buy an inappropriately size melee weapon, and that seems like a basic thing to cover. At least before releasing books about robots and cyborgs. Oh well.
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