Hi Everyone,
TLDR - Trying to build a warpriest for an Occult Mysteries playtest. I am the only front line combatant and divine caster. Please advise.
I'm seeking some advice and critique to a dwarven warpriest build that focuses (party) on cleave for an Occult Mysteries playtest. This character is 13th level and uses standard PFS creation rules.
All of the other players are occult-specific classes. The warpirest is meant to be a "control" to compare the power levels between the new classes and the old. We will be playing Nightmare Rift.
Overall, I want this character to be a "tough as nails" holy warrior. Since the rest of the party consists of archers and casters, I need to be able to hold the front lines on my own. This is my first warpriet so I'm having a bit of trouble balancing damage with defense.
Dwarf Warpriest 13
Deity - Gorum
STR 18/24, DEX 12, CHA 18/24, INT 12, WIS 15, CHA 7
AC: 28
HP = 230 = 68hd + 52con +13fc + 13tough + 6ts +78belt
Saves: +17/+8/+12 - +5 vs. Magic, +3 vs. Poison
Attack: Holly Dwarven Double Waraxe
Full Attack: +19/+14, 2d6+11
PA Full Attack: +14/+10, 2d6+23
PA Cleave Attacks: +15, 2d6+23
Speed: 30ft
BAB: +9/+4
Base Saves: +8/+4/+8
Feats
1b – Weapon Focus (Dwarven Double Waraxe)
1 – Steel Soul
3 – Power Attack
3b – Cleave
5 – Goblin Cleaver
6b – Orc Cleaver
7 – Great Cleave
9 – Cleaving Finish
9b – Improved Cleaving Finish
11 – Toughness
12b – Improved Weapon Focus (Dwarven Double Waraxe)
13 – Tribal Scars (raptor scales)
Traits: Deft Dodger, Glory of Old
Blessings: Strength, War
Items: 140,000gp start
18,360 – Holy Dwarven Double Waraxe (+3 weapon)
10,950 – Dwarven Stone Plate +3 (+3 Armor)
9,170 – Heavy Steel Shield +3 (+3 Armor)
90,000 – Belt of Physical Might +6
9,000 – Cloak of Resistance +2
=7,520gp left
Question 1 - Do I need Cleaving Finished and/or Improved? Or, should I switch it out for something more defensive like Lightning Reflexes OR offensive like Weapon Specialization?
Question 2 - What about items? Do I need the cloak of resistance? Should I put more money into my weapon or armor?
Thanks,
I was going to say that cleave isn't worth building onto, but for dwarves with Goblin Cleaver, Orc Hewer, and Giant Killer it can work.
I suggest you frop toughness or something else to pickup Giant Killer. Cleave Through is also really nice if you can fit it in.
Also, you should swap to some sort of reach weapon instead of dwarven double waraxe. Probably the Dwarven Longhammer. I know the +1 bonus to attack sounds nice, and it is, but having a larger threatened area to use with Goblin Cleaver, Orc Hewer, and Giant Killer is much better because you will get more possible attacks. Besides, cleave attacks are all made at full BAB so you don't need to worry as much about missing with your extra attacks.
Also, how the heck are you starting with an 18 in both Str and Cha? (which I assume you actually meant Con since you say 7 Cha later)
Seeing that you're saying this is made using PFS rules, those stats are impossible. Do you understand how the point buy system works? It is not a 1 for 1, which appears to be how you did it.
Also, there is a rule that says you can't spend more than half of your wealthy by level on a single item, so you can't buy a belt of physical might +6. You could buy a +4 though.
Ya, I would never do a cleave build without being a dwarf.
I don't qualify for Giant Killer. Not enough BAB.
I'd pick a reach weapon except I am the ONLY frontline combatant. I was concerned that having a reach weapon would counter that need - and being close and personal with the enemies would be better. Am I wrong?
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Ya, I would never do a cleave build without being a dwarf.
I don't qualify for Giant Killer. Not enough BAB.
I'd pick a reach weapon except I am the ONLY frontline combatant. I was concerned that having a reach weapon would counter that need - and being close and personal with the enemies would be better. Am I wrong?
You could go whip and have the best of both worlds. You'll have decent damage thanks to sacred weapon, the ability to attack adjacent and up to 15 ft, and still have a shield. Being a dwarf, you would need to worship calistria or dahak for proficency, and you would need to fit in whip mastery to no provoke.
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Sorry, didn't pay attention to BAB requirement and I forget that they removed full BAB from warpriests.
While you may be the only frontline combatant, that is no reason to not use a reach weapon. You just need a backup weapon to threaten at close range as well. Most people simply use armor spikes as a backup because they don't interfere with your hands or reach weapon at all.
The reach weapon is much better with your feats because more threatened range means more potential cleave attacks.
Also, please reread my post above as I pointed out some additional concerns when editing most post.
Also, why would being the only melee combatant counter that need? If anything it makes the need for reach weapons greater because the enemy is going to try to go around you to reach the soft squishy caster behind you if you are the only melee character. Unlike MMOs there aren't many good mechanics to get the enemies to focus on you instead of the other players with weak defenses. So you have to be able to protect them by forcing the enemy to come to you with attacks that are too big to ignore.
I saw your additional comments on the post. Your right. I was working on the character with little sleep and made some mistakes. Editing now.
How high should my armor/saves be for a 13th level "tank" character?
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Well you could always sacred weapon a spiked gauntlet or armor spikes. Most reach weapons have good enough base damage.
Like use a glaive and when they get on you hit them hard with a close weapon that does ridiculous damage.
Remember your divine favor works on all your weapons.
Secondly I highly recommend traits glory of old and Faiths Favored.
As a warpriest there is no excuse to not take faiths favored as you can drop luck bonuses easy enough.
Item wise I recommend:
jingasa of the fortunate soldier. Yay more luck bonus...and negates 1 crit a day.
lesser rod of extend spell
pearl of power level 1 ×2
Celestial full plate
Quick draw celestial shield
I saw your additional comments on the post. Your right. I was working on the character with little sleep and made some mistakes. Editing now.
How high should my armor/saves be for a 13th level "tank" character?
So, the interesting thing is that too high an AC is actually bad if your goal is to "tank". There are a lot of threads about "tanking" in Pathfinder. The tl;dr version is tanking doesn't really exist and there a lot of concerns about how to do it even moderately effectively because this isn't a video game and you will encounter intelligent enemies who can make decision, such as to ignore you and go after the caster.
In any event you don't want an AC so high that it is unhittable. Because if they can't hit you they will start going after someone else. While you don't want to get hit, you don't want them to hit the squishies either.
Saves, as high as you can get really. Few enemies will be able to switch targets with things that targets saves in a way that matters. Usually they affect an area, or multiple targets. Or if they target individuals you don't have a way to prevent them from targetting the other members of your party anyways. Theres just not much you can do here. Pump them as high as you can reasonably afford. With steel soul and glory of old you're already on the right track anyways.
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I'm guessing your 12th feat is supposed to be Greater Weapon Focus. You could drop that and take Giant Killer as your bonus feat has a higher bab for qualifying for feats.
Also I've got to reiterate one of Claxon's questions. Your stats are too high. What are you base start stats? What are you putting points into as you level.
The best starting stats I can see to get you to what you've got accounted for at lvl 13 are
str: 16
dex: 12
con: 15 (+2 racial)
int: 12
wis: 13 (+2 racial)
cha: 9 (-2 racial)
That'll let you put 1 point into con and 2 points into str at 4, 8 and 12. But the total cost for that is 23 which is too high. You can the 16 to a 15 and be within budget, but then you won't have the 24 str you were aiming for.
Or you can drop your cha to 7 (-2 racial) for a total of 5 and that will also get you what you want.
My stats were off because I had bought an item that was over budget.
Original Stats were:
STR 16, DEX 12, CHA 17, INT 12, WIS 13, CHA 7
Modified (updated) Stats are:
STR 18/22, DEX 12, CHA 18/22, INT 12, WIS 15, CHA 5
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My stats were off because I had bought an item that was over budget.
Original Stats were:
STR 16, DEX 12, CHA 17, INT 12, WIS 13, CHA 7Modified (updated) Stats are:
STR 18/22, DEX 12, CHA 18/22, INT 12, WIS 15, CHA 5
Lol, you did it again. You've got CHA instead of CON ;).
Re: original stats.. That adds up to 21. It looks like what you want (your updated stats are right) to start with is this
Str: 16
Dex: 12
Con: 15 + 2
Int: 12
Wis: 13 + 2
Cha: 7 - 2
But...what if I wanted two charisma scores ;)
Just so everyone is clear, final scores/(with items) are:
STR 18/22, DEX 12, CON 18/22, INT 12, WIS 15, CHA 5
The dwarven dorn build is the weapon and build you're looking for.
Recommended feats
B) Weapon focus Dwarven Dorn
1) Steel Soul
3) Cleave
3B) Power attack
5) Goblin cleaver
6B) Great cleave
7) Darting Viper
9) Combat reflexes
9B) GWF
11) Orc Hewer
12B) Cleaving Finish
13) Improved Cleaving FinishYou definitely want to use the dorn build with darting viper because it fixes the major reach issues.
Would combat reflexes be that effective with only DEX 12?
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Would combat reflexes be that effective with only DEX 12?The dwarven dorn build is the weapon and build you're looking for.
Recommended feats
B) Weapon focus Dwarven Dorn
1) Steel Soul
3) Cleave
3B) Power attack
5) Goblin cleaver
6B) Great cleave
7) Darting Viper
9) Combat reflexes
9B) GWF
11) Orc Hewer
12B) Cleaving Finish
13) Improved Cleaving FinishYou definitely want to use the dorn build with darting viper because it fixes the major reach issues.
It would give you one extra AoO per round. More importantly, it would allow you to make AoOs while flatfooted.
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After reviewing your p urchuses and gold here is my purchuse list:
+3 weapon- roughly 19,000
Headband of wisdom +2- 4,000
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier- 5,000 +1 luck AC, 1/day critical negation
Celestial plate armor- 25,000- +3 mithral full plate
quickdraw celestial shield- 13,220- +2 blinding mithral shield
( together plate and shield gives you feather fall and overland flight 8 hours a day)
lesser cloak of displacement- 24,000- content 20% miss chance...blur
sihedron medallion-3,500- +1 resistance to saves & 1/day false life
belt of physical perfection +2- 16,000
Lesser rod of extend-3,000
Pearl of power level 1 ×2- 2000
Dusty rose prism w/ wayfinder- 5,500- +1 insight bonus to AC & +2 to CMB & CMD
Cracked dusty rose prism- 500- +1 insight bonus on initiative
cracked pale green prism- 4,000- +1 competence bonus to saves
Handy haversack-2000
Wand of defending bone-4500
Wand of cure light wounds-750
Total cost-131,970
With this purchuse you end up with about +2 more AC, consent blur, some DR/5 bludgeoning, 8 hours of overland flight, same saves, more AoO, 1/day false life and critical negation.
Much better layered defenses for a frontline fighter type.
That's a good list.
I will probably add a few extra wands like Air Bubble, Endure Elements, Obscuring Mist and Remove Fear just for some extra utility.
That would be an 3,000gp. 8,080 left.
Giant Killer has a feat requirement that also requires BAB +11. So, unfortunately, no go for the warpriest.
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That's a good list.
I will probably add a few extra wands like Air Bubble, Endure Elements, Obscuring Mist and Remove Fear just for some extra utility.
That would be an 3,000gp. 8,080 left.
That is why I left you a consumable stiffen. So you can buy some scrolls, potions, and wands.
Tho with endure elements...
I play casters where I leave slots open until im about to adventure. If it turns into a non adventure day I write in endure elements and other long buffs...I then use my rod of extend and cast it before my 8 hours of sleep resetting me to a full list. (You can cast blessing of fervor and use the extend option)
You should look at a scroll library with:
Remove X, Y, Z (poison, deafness, disease, fear)
potion of remove blindness (cant read a scroll while your blind)
lesser restoration
air bubble
Tongues
heal
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I'm guessing your 12th feat is supposed to be Greater Weapon Focus. You could drop that and take Giant Killer as your bonus feat has a higher bab for qualifying for feats.
Giant Killer has a feat requirement that also requires BAB +11. So, unfortunately, no go for the warpriest.Warpriest treats their level as BAB for the purpose of qualifying for bonus feats. You absolutely can take giant killer as your level 12 bonus feat.
It's almost like someone already said this *whistles innocently*
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Actually, re-reading my post, I was wrong. You can't take Giant Killer at 12 with the bonus feat, because while you qualify for the BAB requirement, another requirement is the Strike Back feat that also requires BAB +11.
I didn't realize that when I was posting last night, I usually am in bed by then, so I should learn to no post when sleepy. I miss things when I do. :P
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Actually, re-reading my post, I was wrong. You can't take Giant Killer at 12 with the bonus feat, because while you qualify for the BAB requirement, another requirement is the Strike Back feat that also requires BAB +11.
I didn't realize that when I was posting last night, I usually am in bed by then, so I should learn to no post when sleepy. I miss things when I do. :P
In that case he should simply take the strike back feat with his lvl 12 bonus feat.
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Oh god. Nevermind, just forget Giant Killer. Strike Back is such a waste of a feat. It's a waste of words printed on a page really.
If you want to make use of your cleave feats on creatures larger than you, cast righteous might and at that point your Orc Hewer feat works fine. It's unlikely that you'll encounter two huge or larger enemies that you want to Cleave anyway.
For your level 12 bonus feat I would recommend Cleave Through, as that will open up even more options for Cleave and Great Cleave. It's basically a free 5-foot step that you can combine with options like Lunge, righteous might, and a reach weapon.