Hi there!
So my dm and I were wondering if cognatogens had effect on the max amount of bombs per day.
For example, if I'm lvl 2 I get my class level + intelligence mod which would be a total of 6.
Will I temporarily have 8 if I use cognatogen which raises my intelligence mod by 2 ?
Thanks
Temporary ability modifiers don't change uses per day of abilities relying on those modifiers. This is the same reason the Barbarian doesn't get free extra Rage rounds whenever he Rage (due to his Con going up).
Then why does cognatogen give +4 to a mental score and -4 to a physical score whereas mutagen does +4 physical score and -2 to a mental score?
There must be something which makes the mental score increase better which nerfs it like this.
It does increase bomb damage.
Yeah I know but that wasn't the question. I don't get why it would be a -2 when activated and another -2 when ended. I figured you'd get extra bombs. The extra damage is given since mutagen does the same but doesn't get the -4 total.
Then why does cognatogen give +4 to a mental score and -4 to a physical score whereas mutagen does +4 physical score and -2 to a mental score?
There must be something which makes the mental score increase better which nerfs it like this.
Cognatogen gives a few extra advantages. Higher damage, higher save DC (on all your Extracts too), better skill checks, and so on.
You don't get extra bombs just like you don't get extra spells (or extracts) per day or extra channels per day or extra rage per day on temporary bonuses.
In order for use per day increase you need a bonus that lasts longer than 24 hours, no matter what the ability is:
Ki points
bardic performance
Rage
lay on hands
channel energy
Grit
et al
All require a 24 hour or longer bonus before you get extra points or uses of them.
as per this link all temporary bonuses only increase what they state they increase.
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
Is the language you need in order to actually increase ability scores and thereby increase uses.
Cognatogen gives a few extra advantages. Higher damage, higher save DC (on all your Extracts too), better skill checks, and so on.Then why does cognatogen give +4 to a mental score and -4 to a physical score whereas mutagen does +4 physical score and -2 to a mental score?
There must be something which makes the mental score increase better which nerfs it like this.
That shouldn't be how it works. The damage increase for both mutagen and cognatogen is +2. The higher DC shouldnt happen right? That falls under the 24 hour increase bit. The effect must last at least 24 hours to have effect on slots and dc's.
Though skill checks are true but that's also true for mutagen.
Cognatogen gives a few extra advantages. Higher damage, higher save DC (on all your Extracts too), better skill checks, and so on.Then why does cognatogen give +4 to a mental score and -4 to a physical score whereas mutagen does +4 physical score and -2 to a mental score?
There must be something which makes the mental score increase better which nerfs it like this.
That shouldn't be how it works. The damage increase for both mutagen and cognatogen is +2. The higher DC shouldnt happen right? That falls under the 24 hour increase bit. The effect must last at least 24 hours to have effect on slots and dc's.
Though skill checks are true but that's also true for mutagen.
Slots yes, DCs no. Temporary bonuses basically affect everything that doesn't determine something that's limited.
A Cognatogen that raises your Int affects everything based off of your Int modifier except X per day abilities. It would affect save DCs, skill bonuses (not ranks), Bomb damage, and other abilities that key off Int (EX if you were also a Kensai Magus, it would add to your AC).
Likewise a Wis Cognatogen raises your Will save, Wis based skills, and so forth, but would not give you extra Ki or uses of 3+Wis per day Cleric abilities.
Essentially: Variables change, everything else does not.
Okay thanks :)
Actually according to the Oct 2013 FAQ regarding Temporary bonuses, they affect everything Permanent ones do unless the rules say otherwise.
So Barbarian Rage doesn't increase in uses because it specifically says so.
Also Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom, and Eagle's Splendor specifically don't add Spell Slots because they say so.
However, things like Alchemist's Bombs and Cleric Channels are tied directly to the Modifier. When that modifier goes up permanently or temporarily, the uses per day do as well because no specific rule supersedes the general one clarified in the FAQ.
I'm sure it's an easy step to assume that Bear's Endurance, which was written before the Scarred Witch Doctor, would behave for that class in the same way it behaves for Barbarians or the other Attribute boosting spells behave for their respective classes. But that's just going by RAI.
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The general principle seems to be that temporary ability bonuses do not increase "resources" like spells, daily uses of powers, or even skill points. They do increase derived values like skill bonuses and save DCs - things you can't spend.
It's a good principle, too. If you got skill points every time you got a temporary boost in intelligence, you could use Fox's Cunning to get a (class) bonus on a skill whenever you need it. And if you get an extra spell due to a temporary bonus, you cast it, then the bonus wears off, you get another bonus, do you get another spell? Or can you go below 0 remaining uses per day? These are all questions we never need to worry about.
What bothers me about the cognatogen is that it's not a penalty. It's Damage.
How do you even survive using this at low level? At high level I assume you burn Lesser Restorations to keep functional? Or am I missing something?
Ability damage regenerates a point a day.
Plus, Alchemist gets Lesser Restoration as a 2nd level Extract. Doesn't really need to be "high level".
Still dumb, but workable.
The general principle seems to be that temporary ability bonuses do not increase "resources" like spells, daily uses of powers, or even skill points. They do increase derived values like skill bonuses and save DCs - things you can't spend.
It's a good principle, too. If you got skill points every time you got a temporary boost in intelligence, you could use Fox's Cunning to get a (class) bonus on a skill whenever you need it. And if you get an extra spell due to a temporary bonus, you cast it, then the bonus wears off, you get another bonus, do you get another spell? Or can you go below 0 remaining uses per day? These are all questions we never need to worry about.
You can never get an extra spell because the rules state that this is not possible. Going below 0 uses shouldn't be possible also. If we assume Elbedor is correct and that the FAQ does allow it, then an Alchemist who would normally have (class level (2) + Int mod (4)) = 6 bombs per day, could temporarily get 8 bombs a day. This would be because of the increase of int with cognatogen.
Naturally, if one would use the cognatogen and have the 8 bombs a day, after using 8, one could not use a 9th with the current class level and int mod. So you cannot go over that without temporarily raising int once more.
What bothers me about the cognatogen is that it's not a penalty. It's Damage.
How do you even survive using this at low level? At high level I assume you burn Lesser Restorations to keep functional? Or am I missing something?
Ability damage regenerates a point a day.
Plus, Alchemist gets Lesser Restoration as a 2nd level Extract. Doesn't really need to be "high level".
Still dumb, but workable.
Actually, if you use a heal check and you succeed, you can rest for 8 hours and it'll heal 2 points of ability damage.
The rules in the books were written in such a way as to speed up play. They were not meant to reflect every single example of what increases or doesn't increase. So the FAQ linked above is basically saying "Yes, temporary bonuses change everything permanent ones do (unless otherwise specified), but most of that is hand-waved for the sake of game play."
Things like extra spell slots or skill points are specifically denied, because they would add such a complex level to the game, that it would bog things down entirely.
Rage is denied because you have an ability raising a stat that is dependent on that same stat...that is raised by the ability...that is determined by the stat...that is...well you get the idea. Circular oddness would ensue.
Also I'm guessing most people don't keep up-to-the-second track of their encumbrance if during a fight they take a temporary hit to STR. If it was a drain or significant damage that needs to be played out during the adventure, then maybe an adjustment would be made. Otherwise no need for it.
For Bombs, yes you get Level + Mod. 4th level + 4 Mod? 8 bombs. I throw all 8. Now I drink a Cognatogen which takes my Mod to +6. So now I'm allowed 10 bombs. Since I've thrown 8, I have 2 left. Later when the Cognatogen wears of, I'm back to 8/day. Later still I drink another Cognatogen and am allowed 10. But I've already thrown 10 so this doesn't give me access to any more.
But again, that's only if you choose to track the details.
Actually ability damage doesn't adjust stats -- it just provides a penalty and can render you unconscious or dead (in the case of con damage). You don't lose spells or anything else with it (feats, abilities et al).
The only thing that actually hurts in this regard is drain.
Actually ability damage doesn't adjust stats -- it just provides a penalty and can render you unconscious or dead (in the case of con damage). You don't lose spells or anything else with it (feats, abilities et al).
The only thing that actually hurts in this regard is drain.
Would bombs per day be effected if the int would be lowered because of ability damage?
No, because damage does not actually affect the stat.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.
It goes on to list stuff about each stat here
Compare that to drain:
Ability Drain
Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.
No, because damage does not actually affect the stat.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.It goes on to list stuff about each stat here
Compare that to drain:
Ability Drain
Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.
I see! Thanks :)