| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Just hit level 4 on my first druid. I'm new to melee-focused characters and to polymorphing/shifting size without Enlarge/Reduce extracts.
Polymorph school says that you get the base speed of your new form, but Beast Shape lists specific base speeds for different movement types, and they're all 30. So, a dolphin swims at 30 but a Cheetah can move at 50?
Does being Beast Shaped render you immune to Baleful Polymorph?
You get the lower of the spell's speed and the creature's speed. So you could run (as a cheetah) at 30, but you could only run as a turtle at 20 (or whatever the turtle's limit was).
Baleful polymorph trumps any existing polymorph effects and prevents you from applying new ones, so no immunity there.
Wild Shape can't be dispelled though.
It can't be dispelled by dispel magic. Baleful Polymorph will certainly dispel it though.
Wild Shape can't be dispelled though.It can't be dispelled by dispel magic. Baleful Polymorph will certainly dispel it though.
It does say "effects", not spells. Also, Wild Shape acts as Beast Shape or Elemental Body or Plant Shape, so therefore I would guess could be dispelled. Have to side with Bob on this one.
Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells.Wild Shape (Su)SU rules don't mention dispel magic, their effects cannot be dispelled, thus Baleful Polymorph can't dispel it either.
Specific trumps general. "All polymorph EFFECTS" are dispelled.
One argument comes from a general rules section, saying supernatural abilities can't be dispelled, covering all supernatural abilities.
One argument comes from a specific spell, not a general section, which states it covers all polymorph effects and they will be dispelled. (The spell also notes specific exceptions and doesn't note wild shape.)
Other issues aside, the spell is definitely the more specific of the two. If the argument is only 'specific trumps general to win this conflict' then Baleful Polymorph, a specific spell which states any effect in it's wording, wins and trumps the general supernatural rules. Unless someone was arguing Wild Shape isn't a polymorph effect but I don't see any way that argument could hold much weight (the spell specifically references polymorph spells as how it acts).
Don't get me wrong, as someone who among the now 20+ classes still plays Druids probably 20-30% of the time it would be great if that wasn't true, and I think in past editions (1st maybe?) it had an exception, I just don't think it is anymore. The spell, which is more specific, makes it clear to call out any (which is basically a synonym for all) effects. If our default rules resolution before something is faq worthy is specific > general, there's not much of a question that an individual spell is more specific than a general rules section.
To be fair, if the druid fails the will save, he loses all Su abilities, which would include his wildshape.
I do think that RAW baleful polymorph can't dispel a druid's wildshape, due to wildshape being Su and Su abilities not able to be dispelled. I do think the RAI is that baleful polymorph works if the fort save is failed. A fix would be to change the wording from, "Any polymorph effects on the target are automatically dispelled when a target fails to resist the effects of baleful polymorph" to "Any polymorph effects on the target are automatically ended when a target fails to resist the effects of baleful polymorph"
This basically ends the duration of the spell, instead of a "dispel" which is not useable on Supernatural abilities.
Specific Spell Wording > General SU Rules Section?
4 posters think the spell trumps Wild shape
Specific SU Rules Section > General Wording of A Spell?
2 posters (and some past editions) think Wild Shape trumps the spell
66.6/33.3 isn't overwhelming for either side so far and that's a really limited sample of PF players/GMs.
If the argument will be over what is more specific and what is more general, then neither side has yet 'proven' the other wrong within the RAW, that's going to be subjective to the reader. Which, in this case, means GM's call.
Anyone got anything new to add? I would expect table variation unless it's FAQ'd or new information is introduced to the discussion.
It is not really about specific wording vs general wording.
For example, say you have a creature that has fire immunity and you cast a fireball on it. Fireball text states it does Xd6 fire damage.
But the damage does not apply since the creature is immune to fire damage, doesn't matter which is more specific right?Same case with baleful polymorph, it tries to dispel polymorph effects. Which does not affect wild shape since SU abilities cannot be dispelled.
The thing is, it doesn't try to dispell all polymorph effects. They simply all are dispelled. No roll, no dispel check. If you fail the fort save, all polymorph effects currently active are dispelled. That is the part that makes me think it should override wild shape.
From Nov 3rd
It is not really about specific wording vs general wording.
but before your stance was
Oct 30th
Yeah and the fact that a SU can't be dispelled is more specific than all polymorph effects are dispelled.
So you've changed your stance from earlier then? Want to make sure we're all on the same page on what we're discussing as the hair to split here.
For example, say you have a creature that has fire immunity and you cast a fireball on it. Fireball text states it does Xd6 fire damage.
But the damage does not apply since the creature is immune to fire damage, doesn't matter which is more specific right?Same case with baleful polymorph, it tries to dispel polymorph effects. Which does not affect wild shape since SU abilities cannot be dispelled.
I do not think that example is close enough to help your case. It certainly isn't a direct comparison to this situation. Nothing in fireball contains an absolute, like the "any polymorph effect" in Baleful does, which would cause a conflict with fire immunity to force a specific/general standoff.
Baleful Polymorph states "Any polymorph effects on the target are automatically dispelled when a target fails to resist the effects of baleful polymorph"
Unless you are arguing Wild Shape is not a polymorph effect, is that what you're stating now?, you seem to have changed your stance some, want to make sure we can address the right point, then you have an absolute that it will be dispelled vs a blanket statement that it isn't to be dispelled.
Thus the general/specific fallback which I think, while I lean specific Baleful spell > general polymorph SU rules, both sides have a case for and can't be absolutely argued either way.
So I still think, at least by what's been posted here by either side so far, prepare to have GM adjudication baring a FAQ.
It's even possible your example of Fireball could lend some credence to Baleful Polymorph dispelling even when the general rules say it won't. There have been archtypes/etc. in 3.0-PF which allow elemental damage to bypass immunities. That would imply the general sections which mention generic immunities, like the general section on SU abilities, is a more general section then specific subsections of other, later parts of the books.