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So, a while back I got some help with a whip Magus build. Due to scheduling issues, that campaign hasn't started just yet, but talking to the other party members, it sounds like a melee Magus might fit a bit better. That's fine with me; I was pretty torn between whip and rapier anyway, and a rapier looks far easier on feats.
I've got a few thoughts on where I want to take this, but first, here's my basic chassis:
Elven Inspired Blade Swashbuckler 1 / Kensai Magus X
Favored Class: Magus, 1/6 Arcana as much as possible for 2 bonus arcanas
Traits:
Fencer (+1 to attack rolls for AoOs)
?
Stats (see this post for an explanation of how these stats were derived and how I can change them):
Str 10
Dex 19
Con 12
Int 18
Wis 10
Cha 8
Feats and Arcanas (by character level):
1 Weapon Focus, Rapier (Inspired Blade bonus)
1 Weapon Finesse (effectively granted by Swashbuckler)
1 Fencing Grace
2 Weapon Focus, Rapier (Kensai bonus; effectively does nothing)
3 Combat Reflexes
4 Flamboyant Arcana (Arcana)
5 ?
6 ? (Magus Bonus)
7 ?
7 Arcane Deed, Precise Strike (Arcana)
9 ?
9 Arcane Accuracy (FCB Arcana)
11 Critical Focus
12 Bleeding Critical (Magus Bonus)
13 Staggering Critical
13 Arcane Deed, Evasive (Arcana)
15 ?
15 Arcane Accuracy (FCB Arcana)
16 Bane Blade (Arcana)
17 Stunning Critical
18 Critical Mastery (Magus Bonus)
19 ?
19 ? (Arcana)
From there, there's a number of ways I can go, which aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.
1) Pick up Enforcer, Rime Spell and Magical Lineage, Frostbite to go for debuffing. This has the advantage of conserving spell slots, as Frostbite will last a while. I'd probably want to grab Wand Wielder at some point, though, to continue making use of Spell Combat without losing the spell.
2) Pick up Bodyguard and Arcane Strike, possibly with the Adopted trait to get Helpful Halfling. Once I pick up Gloves of Arcane Striking and some Beneficial armor, this lets me buff my allies' AC pretty significantly as they take attacks, hopefully causing the enemy to try to take me out instead, giving me plenty of opportunities to use Opportune Parry and Riposte with my reasonably large pool of Inspired Panache. I like this option a lot, both mechanically and when considering potential character flavoring, but I'm not sure if Bodyguard will be enough to keep things on me given that I'll be difficult to hit. The spell Lock Gaze should help, but it's not a guarantee. Is there anything else I can do to make myself more of a target while avoiding getting hit?
3) If I go with both of the above, I can consider taking Riving Strike to pile on another debuff.
4) Pick up a familiar with the Valet archetype and start taking teamwork feats with the intent of using Improved Spell Sharing to polymorph both myself and my familiar into a useful combat form. Paired Opportunists makes Opportune Parry more likely to succeed, plus my allies can also take the teamwork feats to get their own bonuses. I don't want to go for teamwork feats without the familiar, since I can't guarantee my party members will want to take them as well, but I am afraid of losing the familiar. Any thoughts on protecting the familiar in melee with this route?
5) Ignore or scale back support and go for a standard Magical Lineage, Shocking Grasp with Intensify Spell build.
What are people's thoughts on this? I'm particularly interested in #2 or #4, but I'm not sure if they're really viable.
Dex based builds will be less fantastic on #4. I like option #2best. Sounds like a fun package. Have Frostbite up and you will even be amazing on the damage as well.
ZZTRaider wrote: So, a while back I got some help with a whip Magus build. Due to scheduling issues, that campaign hasn't started just yet, but talking to the other party members, it sounds like a melee Magus might fit a bit better. That's fine with me; I was pretty torn between whip and rapier anyway, and a rapier looks far easier on feats.
I've got a few thoughts on where I want to take this, but first, here's my basic chassis:
Elven Inspired Blade Swashbuckler 1 / Kensai Magus X
Favored Class: Magus, 1/6 Arcana as much as possible for 2 bonus arcanas
Traits:
Fencer (+1 to attack rolls for AoOs)
?
Before anything else: the second trait should be Magical Lineage. The first trait might be Wayang Spellhunter too, but I've never understood a Magus who sacrifices Lineage. I'm not overly fond of Fencer, but that might be me.
I also don't like the dip, but that's because I don't see the appeal of taking a dip to dodge a feat tax in order to give yourself a feat tax later and really don't see extra-limited-use-Arcane-Pool as being worth slower-everything-the-Magus-is-good-for. But I've beaten that subject to death elsewhere.
Finally, how set are you on Elves? I'm a huge fan of the Tiefling for a Magus.
ZZTRaider wrote: Stats (see this post for an explanation of how these stats were derived and how I can change them):
Str 10
Dex 19
Con 12
Int 18
Wis 10
Cha 8
Feats and Arcanas (by character level):
1 Weapon Focus, Rapier (Inspired Blade bonus)
1 Weapon Finesse (effectively granted by Swashbuckler)
1 Fencing Grace
2 Weapon Focus, Rapier (Kensai bonus; effectively does nothing)
3 Combat Reflexes
4 Flamboyant Arcana (Arcana)
5 ?
6 ? (Magus Bonus)
7 ?
7 Arcane Deed, Precise Strike (Arcana)
9 ?
9 Arcane Accuracy (FCB Arcana)
11 Critical Focus
12 Bleeding Critical (Magus Bonus)
13 Staggering Critical
13 Arcane Deed, Evasive (Arcana)
15 ?
15 Arcane Accuracy (FCB Arcana)
16 Bane Blade (Arcana)
17 Stunning Critical
18 Critical Mastery (Magus Bonus)
19 ?
19 ? (Arcana)
My immediate thoughts:
-At level 7, Intensify Spell. You want Shocking Grasp. One feat slot is worth it.
-By my count, you'll get your first FCB Arcana at level 7, second at 13, third at 19. Or are you delaying it for two levels intentionally? If not, bump Arcane Accuracy forward.
-A well-placed Spell Blending can be extremely useful. Just a thought.
-I'm not a fan of the Critical feats. You can take Bleeding Critical for 2d6 damage when you crit... or you can take Arcane Deed: Bleeding Wound for Dex-as-Bleed whenever you have an extra point, and have the option of dealing attribute bleed if need be. Note that Bleeding Critical's 2d6 bleed is an average of 7, and by level 12 I'd expect you to have a Dex of at least that. The only advantage of Bleeding Critical is that it doesn't cost a point... but I'll take reliability over that any day. Similarly, Staggering Critical is something you can apply with a second-level spell whenever you need to (Frigid Touch, no-save Stagger for a round, if you crit you Stagger them for a minute).
ZZTRaider wrote: From there, there's a number of ways I can go, which aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.
1) Pick up Enforcer, Rime Spell and Magical Lineage, Frostbite to go for debuffing. This has the advantage of conserving spell slots, as Frostbite will last a while. I'd probably want to grab Wand Wielder at some point, though, to continue making use of Spell Combat without losing the spell.
Frostbite is either crazy-awesome or crazy-useless, depending on how much access you think enemies will have to healing magic. I'd try to figure that out before you move on this. That said, it's a trait and two feats. Not exactly a huge level of required investment.
ZZTRaider wrote: 2) Pick up Bodyguard and Arcane Strike, possibly with the Adopted trait to get Helpful Halfling. Once I pick up Gloves of Arcane Striking and some Beneficial armor, this lets me buff my allies' AC pretty significantly as they take attacks, hopefully causing the enemy to try to take me out instead, giving me plenty of opportunities to use Opportune Parry and Riposte with my reasonably large pool of Inspired Panache. I like this option a lot, both mechanically and when considering potential character flavoring, but I'm not sure if Bodyguard will be enough to keep things on me given that I'll be difficult to hit. The spell Lock Gaze should help, but it's not a guarantee. Is there anything else I can do to make myself more of a target while avoiding getting hit? Do you know what your partymates are bringing? Unless you know that they're all going to be on the squishy end I would avoid this. There are too many ways to effectively bypass this kind of defense, in my mind (my immediate reaction? Spam Fireballs and arrows and watch the d8 hit dice drop like a rock).
If you're obligated to fill a role as party tank, and you're okay doing it, then go for it.
ZZTRaider wrote: 3) If I go with both of the above, I can consider taking Riving Strike to pile on another debuff. Riving Strike is awesome, but keep in mind that using your Swift Action means no Riposte and cuts off a lot of Magus tricks. Something to use sparingly, I'd think.
ZZTRaider wrote: 4) Pick up a familiar with the Valet archetype and start taking teamwork feats with the intent of using Improved Spell Sharing to polymorph both myself and my familiar into a useful combat form. Paired Opportunists makes Opportune Parry more likely to succeed, plus my allies can also take the teamwork feats to get their own bonuses. I don't want to go for teamwork feats without the familiar, since I can't guarantee my party members will want to take them as well, but I am afraid of losing the familiar. Any thoughts on protecting the familiar in melee with this route? I'm not massively fond of polymorphing with a Magus, but I am very fond of polymorphing familiars. Turning a Mephit into a dragon is just fun.
In terms of survival, as a Magus in general and a Kensai in particular your equipment costs are lower. Might be worthwhile to buy the familiar a Breastplate (or equivalent). That depends on what kind of Polymorphing work you intend to do though.
ZZTRaider wrote: 5) Ignore or scale back support and go for a standard Magical Lineage, Shocking Grasp with Intensify Spell build. This... honestly confuses me. The standard combination there requires... a feat and a trait. There's no reason why you couldn't mix it into #2 (and if you do that, you should) or #4 (and if you do that, you should), and to a lesser degree, #1 and #3 (you lose Fencer and have to divvy up your spell slots a bit, but it can certainly be done).
ZZTRaider wrote: What are people's thoughts on this? I'm particularly interested in #2 or #4, but I'm not sure if they're really viable. I think you can combine 1/4/5 pretty easily
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
kestral287 wrote: Finally, how set are you on Elves? I'm a huge fan of the Tiefling for a Magus. I think Elf fits very well for the flavor I'm going for and I like the favored class bonus. It also has the benefit of not needing GM permission to use a non-core race.
kestral287 wrote: -By my count, you'll get your first FCB Arcana at level 7, second at 13, third at 19. Or are you delaying it for two levels intentionally? If not, bump Arcane Accuracy forward. My understanding from this developer post, I'm not allowed to take a FCB that improves a class feature until I actually have the feature.
kestral287 wrote: -A well-placed Spell Blending can be extremely useful. Just a thought. This is true, though the build does seem rather tight on Arcana at the moment.
kestral287 wrote: -I'm not a fan of the Critical feats. You can take Bleeding Critical for 2d6 damage when you crit... or you can take Arcane Deed: Bleeding Wound for Dex-as-Bleed whenever you have an extra point, and have the option of dealing attribute bleed if need be. The bleed damage from Bleeding Critical explicitly stacks with itself, so after 4 crits, that'll be 8d6 bleed damage. Constitution bleed is rather powerful, though, I'll give you that. That might be worth adding in somewhere.
kestral287 wrote: Similarly, Staggering Critical is something you can apply with a second-level spell whenever you need to (Frigid Touch, no-save Stagger for a round, if you crit you Stagger them for a minute). That is probably a good call. There's a pretty good chance of a crit there, so it'll be mostly the same as Staggering Critical. Stunning Critical comes in so late, losing that probably doesn't make much difference. Plus I can drop Critical Mastery at that point, too.
kestral287 wrote: Frostbite is either crazy-awesome or crazy-useless, depending on how much access you think enemies will have to healing magic. I'd try to figure that out before you move on this. That said, it's a trait and two feats. Not exactly a huge level of required investment. I don't really know. I know we're playing in Ravenloft, but I'm not really familiar with the setting and have no idea where the campaign is going as of yet. Might be something worth dropping a feat for Additional Traits on later, though.
kestral287 wrote: Do you know what your partymates are bringing? Unless you know that they're all going to be on the squishy end I would avoid this. There are too many ways to effectively bypass this kind of defense, in my mind (my immediate reaction? Spam Fireballs and arrows and watch the d8 hit dice drop like a rock). We'll have a Heal/Buff Cleric, a strength-based Monk, and a Rogue. Not sure what the Rogue's focus will be.
kestral287 wrote: I'm not massively fond of polymorphing with a Magus, but I am very fond of polymorphing familiars. Turning a Mephit into a dragon is just fun.
In terms of survival, as a Magus in general and a Kensai in particular your equipment costs are lower. Might be worthwhile to buy the familiar a Breastplate (or equivalent). That depends on what kind of Polymorphing work you intend to do though.
Probably Monstrous Physique. It kicks in much sooner than a lot of polymorphing and lets my Magus continue using his normal weapon, while still providing natural attacks for a familiar. On the downside, though, it does hurt Dexterity a little bit.
I suppose I could do something with a Polymorphic Pouch and Elemental Body... Though that would definitely be a stronger option for a Tiefling, since it could use a tail to retrieve the weapon as a swift action.
I'd love to use Giant Form, since I could give my familiar regeneration that way, but it's too high level for a Magus to grab.
How are you able to take Bleeding, Staggering, and Stunning Critical at those levels? The critical feats work off of your BAB not your character level.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Midnighter wrote: How are you able to take Bleeding, Staggering, and Stunning Critical at those levels? The critical feats work off of your BAB not your character level. The Kensai archetype gives an ability called Critical Perfection that lets you use your Magus level in place of BAB for Critical Focus and feats that have it as a prerequisite. It should stack with multiclassing the same way that a Monk's Flurry of Blows does, so even with the Swashbuckler dip, I effectively have full BAB for those feats.
Oh nice ability. Does it show I have never played a Kensai? :)
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Midnighter wrote: Oh nice ability. Does it show I have never played a Kensai? :) Hah, that's okay. I know I can't keep up with all of the archetype abilities.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
The new campaign starts tomorrow. Any more thoughts from anyone before then?
Have you tossed out the bladebound magus archtype?
It is a free magic weapon (that you can only give abilities via arcane pool) no familiar access and you lose the 3rd level arcana.
Oh, and slightly fewer points in arcane pool (1 per 3 levels instead of 1 per 2 levels.)
I would personally toss the swashbuckler level, its unneeded IMO, but your call in the long run.
1. Elf works then.
2. I don't believe that applies here. What's being talked about there is something like "X class feature operates at class level +1". However, here, you're not boosting an existing Arcana, you're getting a new one.
I could be wrong, but that's my reading. Perhaps talk to your GM about it.
3. Fair enough on Spell Blending. I honestly think you could make room rather easily by pulling the Critical feats, but if you like them you like them.
4. Are you really expecting to crit the same target four times? Even with a 15-20 weapon that requires, assuming you confirm all crits (easy with a Kensai, so we'll roll with it), 13.3 attacks. I would really, really not plan on a target standing up to a Kensai for that long.
5. Fair on Frostbite. That's a solid plan really, lets you retain some flexibility.
6. With a defensive-oriented Cleric and a Monk in the party, I wouldn't be too concerned about playing Bodyguard. It's an interesting build that has its place, but kind of a nichey one.
7. Monstrous Physique is probably your best option, as it'll let you keep your equipment online-- including for your Familiar, so dropping some cash on a Breastplate for a Mephit is much more palatable.
8. With an open trait slot and open feat slots, I'm going to again reiterate the value of the basic Shocking Grasp setup. It's very minimal setup for an excellent tool when you need to go nova.
ZZTRaider wrote: kestral287 wrote: -By my count, you'll get your first FCB Arcana at level 7, second at 13, third at 19. Or are you delaying it for two levels intentionally? If not, bump Arcane Accuracy forward. My understanding from this developer post, I'm not allowed to take a FCB that improves a class feature until I actually have the feature.
There are 2 schools of thoughts on this. To my knowledge, it has not been clarified. I am speaking specifically about the FCB that give you an ability, not a + to an ability.
School A: NO. You need to have the ability before you can FCB it. IE. need a rouge talent before you can start taking the FCB 1/6 talent.
School B: YES. You can take 1/6 of a rouge talent even before you have any talents.
I am personally in the second school of thought. 1/6 of an ability is not improving an ability, it is starting to give ya one. I agree that you can not get a FCB that increases an ability you do not have. Check with your GM.
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