Goblin Squad Member
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Could some folks share illustrative examples of keywords they have active, e.g. "I have feat X & Y trained, and am wearing armor with Keywords X, Y, P, and D. So I'm going to try and get feats P & D also."
Be great to get some martial, divine, arcane and rogue examples.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Martial
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Dragoon Build (DPS spec):
Armour Feat- Dragoon Level 2 (Keywords: Heavy, Military)
Armour - Hide and Steel Banded +1 (Keywords: Heavy, Military)
When I get Hide and Steel Banded +2 (Keywords: Heavy, Military, Distributed) I will upgrade my Dragoon Feat to level 3, to get the Keyword Distributed.
Steel Greatsword +1 (Keywords: Slashing, Sharp)
Cross Blow, Wrath Guard, Cleave, Passing Step Thrust, Swing, and Wrathful Strike ALL Level 2 (Keywords: Slashing, Sharp)
When I get a Steel Greatsword +2 (Keywords: Slashing, Sharp, Heavy) I will upgrade ALL my Attack Feats to level 3.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks so much Dazyk--those are both great examples. I can't read any of the armor feats (they scroll off the screen), and I don't know what the keywords themselves do--is there a document somewhere that shows the match between feats (i.e. that Dragoon means Heavy & Military) and what keywords do (i.e. what Military does for you)?
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Goblin Squad Member
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A wizard example:
Match keywords on staff (only considering keywords that might be activated for +2 version) to keywords on cantrips:
Apprentice Diminishing Staff +2: arcane/vexing/expansive
which matches keywords for Wilting Surge (trained to lvl 3, range 35): arcane/vexing/expansive
or Wraith's cry (trained to lvl 3, melee): arcane/vexing/expansive
On the other hand, if you used an Apprentice's charged staff +2, it's keywords are arcane/volatile/expansive and would thus only match 2 keywords instead of 3 for the above cantrips. Of course you could then select a different cantrip, like Artic Winds and match the keyword volatile.
All +0 staffs will match the first keyword (arcane), and it seems all +2 staffs will match the 3rd (expansive)
Wands are similar.
For spells that go in a spellbook (implement), it is the Class feature that you slot which has to match the spell keywords.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks so much Dazyk--those are both great examples. I can't read any of the armor feats (they scroll off the screen), and I don't know what the keywords themselves do--is there a document somewhere that shows the match between feats (i.e. that Dragoon means Heavy & Military) and what keywords do (i.e. what Military does for you)?
Very few specific Keywords actually do anything in particular. That "Military" on your Armor Feat might as well be "Armor Keyword 17". Some Keywords like "Cold Iron" do have very particular effects, but the vast majority don't.
Armor Feat Keywords get matched against the Keywords on your Armor. Each Keyword match triggers the Keyword Effect for that Armor Feat, and also determines your Effect Protection. Effect Protection is a simple number that is, I believe, Minor Keyword Matches + (Major Keyword Matches x 4).
The Upgrade Keyword for Pot Steel Plate are "Heavy/Military/Strengthened/Dense". That means that the regular +0 stuff you get off starter goblins has the Heavy Keyword. If you get some crafted Pot Steel Plate +1, it will have Heavy and Military. The Unbreakable Armor Feat has Heavy at Level 1, and adds Military at Level 2, but doesn't add Strengthened until Level 4.
With Pot Steel Plate +2 and Unbreakable Level 4, you're matching three minor Keywords, Heavy, Military, and Strengthened. This gives you three points of Effect Protection (about as good as you can get against any Tier 1 Attack) and three matches worth of all those "per Keyword" effects.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon,
With the last example above, isn't Pot Steel Plate +2 with Dragoon level 4 a better match for more Keywords? (if I understand correctly)
Still confused as to what:
Pot Steel Plate +2 w/Unbreakable 4
Pot Steel Plate +2 w/Dragoon 4
Do differently with regards to synergies with attack feats, fighter role features and reactive/defensive feats...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I use an Apprentice's Psychic Staff +2, which has Arcane, Mental, and Expansive.
- Hellflume 3 - Arcane, Volatile, and Expansive
- Arctic Winds 3 - Arcane, Volatile, and Expansive
- Killing Joke 3 - Arcane, Mental, and Expansive
- Electric Brand 3 - Arcane, Volatile, and Expansive
I had to buy Level 3 for all of those attacks to get access to the Expansive Keyword, which I have on my Staff since it's +2. Because my Staff also has Mental, I get three matches for Killing Joke, and two matches for the other Attacks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A wizard example:
Match keywords on staff (only considering keywords that might be activated for +2 version) to keywords on cantrips:
Apprentice Diminishing Staff +2: arcane/vexing/expansive
which matches keywords for Wilting Surge (trained to lvl 3, range 35): arcane/vexing/expansive
or Wraith's cry (trained to lvl 3, melee): arcane/vexing/expansiveOn the other hand, if you used an Apprentice's charged staff +2, it's keywords are arcane/volatile/expansive and would thus only match 2 keywords instead of 3 for the above cantrips. Of course you could then select a different cantrip, like Artic Winds and match the keyword volatile.
All +0 staffs will match the first keyword (arcane), and it seems all +2 staffs will match the 3rd (expansive)
Wands are similar.
For spells that go in a spellbook (implement), it is the Class feature that you slot which has to match the spell keywords.
Thank you!
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Goblin Squad Member
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... isn't Pot Steel Plate +2 with Dragoon level 4 a better match for more Keywords?
Pot Steel Plate +2 has Heavy, Military, and Strengthened.
Unbreakable Level 4 has Heavy, Military, and Strengthened.
Dragoon Level 4 has Heavy, Military, and Distributed.
Dragoon won't match that Strengthened Keyword on your Pot Steel Plate +2 until you get Dragoon Level 8.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon,
So with Pot Steel Plate +2:
Unbreakable 4 = Dragoon 8 to match all 3 keywords.
So what does the "Distributed" Keyword for Dragoon Armor Feat good for?
Is it meant to be a match for a different or better armor?
Is it meant to be key of an attack or fighter role feature?
How can I figure this out in game?
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Distributed keyword (might as well be called "Armor Keyword 16") matches other armor types, like +2 Hide and Steel Banded, +2 Yew and Iron Splint, or +3 Segmented Lorica.
In game, each armor type shows its keywords when you mouse-over the icon in inventory or on paper doll (for +0 to +3). The trouble is seeing the keywords for armor feats.
Very few specific Keywords actually do anything in particular. That "Military" on your Armor Feat might as well be "Armor Keyword 17". Some Keywords like "Cold Iron" do have very particular effects, but the vast majority don't.
edit to add: I think we were told at some point that armor feats are armor feats, and weapon/attack feats are weapon/attack feats, and there shouldn't be much cross-over.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Mbando,
Sorry if I highjack your thread, but at least I hope we can all learn something in this conversation. :)
@All,
The PFO Wiki tells me:
Dragoon/Fighter/Improved Critical, Light Melee Attack Bonus, Heavy Melee Attack Bonus
Unbreakable/Fighter/All Resistances
Armor Keyword Lookup tells me all the "heavy" armors keywords.
Armor Feat List tells me what the Armor feats do.
And the in game tools tips tell me:
(Absolutely nothing)
I am struggling to combine all the above into something that makes sense and that I can understand!
(Before anyone mentions it, I can not use Nihimon's spreadsheets for personal health reasons; I thank everyone for their work on it, I just can not use that format to understand information.)
I want a heavy armor dwarven melee one hand axe fighter* (with longbow) able to get into the thick of fighting and hold the line while the rest of the group does their thing. (*Shields = broken/not good right now)
How do I select the correct options that makes sense for the above (as many things are interrelated and not clear) and that work together:
A) Train Unbreakable or Dragoon armor feat
B) Select 3/5 defensive feats
C) Select 3/11 reactive feats
D) Select heavy armor that makes the most use of the above
E) Select weapon attacks that compliment the armor, role and previous items.
The more I learn, the more horribly confused I get.
@Urman,
You lost me. Does that mean I should train both Unbreakable AND Dragoon, and mix and match armors as I acquire them (trying to match keywords as I go along)?
/confused and overwhelmed! :(
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, as an aside, I'm likely to end up training both Unbreakable and Dragoon, but I'll be doing it for the Constitution gains.
For your purposes, no, you don't need to train both. You've got a character concept, the heavy dwarven melee axe fighter, with a longbow as a secondary weapon. (Good level of specificity).
There are currently two heavy Fighter armor feats: Dragoon and Unbreakable. Just looking at their effects at skill 1 (disregarding keywords for now):
Dragoon: Improved Critical +5, Light Melee Attack Bonus +7, Heavy Melee Attack Bonus +7
Unbreakable: All Resistances +1
Those will scale with skill, of course. So you pick one: do you want pluses to your attacks, or do you want all of your resistance (damage mitigation) to be better. Maybe you'll buy both eventually and slot Dragoon or Unbreakable depending on what baddies you're attacking, or whether you're the main tank today, or supporting dps. For the first 2-3 weeks of the game, just pick one. Then pick an armor with the keywords that best supports your chosen feat. That's how I'm doing it anyway.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This thread is really making clear to me how tangled the user side of the design is. It looks like there are component systems that interact and have built in parallelism, but there's no lexical parallelism that would let you easily see what matches up with what.
It's obviously a potentially very rich system, but it is confusing as hell.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is confusing and simple at the same time. Confusing because it is not easy to acquire the info. Simple if you have the info and just match feats to the gear they go with.
When GW (probably Ryan?) publishes the breakdown (in a simpler format), I think we will all be as happy as kittens in a coarse yarn +3 pile.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This thread is really making clear to me how tangled the user side of the design is. It looks like there are component systems that interact and have built in parallelism, but there's no lexical parallelism that would let you easily see what matches up with what.
It's obviously a potentially very rich system, but it is confusing as hell.
Creating the foreign key references between the various objects is the main thing I'm working on now. The Effects especially have been quite a challenge, but I'm getting there.
There is also a bit of a challenge in trying to match the Weapons to the various weapon classes listed in, for example, Heavy Blade Specialization or Bow Specialization, etc. along with the Weapon Categories listed on the Attacks and then comparing the Keywords on the gear to the Keywords on the Attacks to try to identify Recommended Weapons for each Attack.
I'll be there, eventually.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm a simple guy and I found it helpful to organise my thoughts using "categories" of systems affecting combat:
1. Keyword activation (armor/armor proficiency, weapon/attack feats)
2. Conditions
3. Effects
4. (Tiers)
I have found the various feat descriptions helpful for matching Keywords, and the Combat Guide good for explaining conditions. Effects I'm still wrapping my head around but given the relationship with Keywords I'm starting to make sense of them. I'm not too concerned about understanding how Tiers will come into play. Trying to learn how to compare a Tier 1 +3 weapon to a Tier 3 +0 can wait for some time.
For new players, understanding matching their intro armor 0 Keyword with proficiency is the most importent to teach in my opinion, followed by learning how to apply or take advantage of conditions from the first attacks they learn. Opportunity seems to be easiest for now, as the icon is very recognisable, and it triggers so easily as mobs run at you, or vice versa.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The next thing on my to-do list for the wiki is to write up a guide on Keywords and how they all fit together.
I will post a link on paizo when I am finished.
You people doing all these guides. Very much appreciated. Please don't burn yourselves out! The info is likely to change many times.
You are valuable assets to this community.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hopefully that can get some love soon. In the era of TL;DR it's a bit of an issue for many. It does get a little wearisome having to tab out often to look at spreadsheets even with the mental fortitude to bother. :P
My answer so far has been to ignore the spreadsheets and look for what seems interesting. Far less capable than a lot of other people, but I'm learning slowly. And I got an 11 Wisdom without even trying....