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Every reference to the aging rules I could find says the negatives are "penalties". These references are the Age Resistance spell line (Ultimate Magic), the Mantle of Immortality item (Ultimate Equipment), the Sands of Time spell(Ultimate Magic), the Nacreous Gray Sphere Ioun Stone (Seeker of Secrets), the Threefold Aspect spell (Advanced Player's Guide), a Cairn Linnorm's curse (Bestiary 3), the Immortality arcane discovery (Ultimate Magic), one of the possible results of drinking Strange Fluids from a spaceship (Land of Fallen Stars), The Foreign Trader card from a Harrow Deck of Many Things (Artifacts and Legends) and the Monk and Druid's Timeless Body (Core).
Why am I asking then? Every reference to these rules calls them penalties, the actual aging rules themselves however, do not. The rules themselves say only that "a character's physical ability scores decrease and his mental ability scores increase" and that "However, none of a character's ability scores can be reduced below 1 in this way." (one of the main traits of penalties).
Why does it matter?
If aging negatives are penalties, temporary removal of the con penalty will increase a character's max HP, but if they are decreases it will not (unless it lasts more than 24 hours)
If aging negatives are penalties, they don't interfere with ability score requirements such as Power Attack's 13 strength. If they are decreases every feat a character has could be rendered invalid due to no longer qualifying.
If aging negatives are not penalties, an aged character is more susceptible to ability damage/drain reducing an ability score to 0. For example: A middle aged character who started with 14 con needs 14 points of ability damage/drain to kill him if they are penalties, but only 13 if they are decreases.
Some words in the rules are game terms, and sometimes the rules use the normal english version of those words instead of the game definition.
They reduction is not a penalty in the game definition sense. It is more like when bestow curse drops your ability scores. If they were ability score penalties per the game term, your actual ability score would not decrease because ability score penalties affect the modifier, but not the actual stat.
No - no more than ability score increases due to levels are bonuses. The character's ability score actually and permanently changes.
All of the above stuff that mentions the increases actually DOES call them "bonuses".
In the core rulebook, both the definitions on pages 11-12 and the descriptions on pages 554-555 seem to indicate that an ability score "increase" is a permanent bonus. Although this is a bonus, it actually increases your ability score and causes you to increase in hit points, skill points, etc. The same seems to apply for the penalties, as several aspects of them match up, such as not being able to reduce an ability score below one. They seem like they would function more like permanent bonuses than like ability damage, which is supported by the fact that it specifies that it's temporary ability penalties that act like ability damage.
If we think of them as permanent penalties, logic dictates that it actually decreases the score, so removing it for less than 24 hours would not give you bonus hit points.
If we think of them as permanent penalties, they would prevent you from using feats, but removing them, even temporarily, would allow you to use them again.
Actually, this last part is the same no matter how you think of them. Even temporary penalties act like ability damage except that they cannot reduce your stats below 1. There's nothing stopping, say, a penalty from reducing your Constitution to 3 and then 3 points of Con damage from killing you.
Found something that references the aging rules without penalties: Youthful Appearance
Quote: This spell does not affect any age-based modifications to ability scores or other age-related effects. Why they don't use "age-based modifications" or "decreases" in everything else if they didn't want them to be actual "penalties" is beyond me.
deuxhero wrote: Found something that references the aging rules without penalties: Youthful Appearance
Quote: This spell does not affect any age-based modifications to ability scores or other age-related effects. Why they don't use "age-based modifications" or "decreases" in everything else if they didn't want them to be actual "penalties" is beyond me.
Paizo has different freelancers on different projects, and they dont want to limit them too much with codified language, but I do agree this should have been an exception.
Different freelancers would explain wildly different wordings, but everything using the same wording? Unless one freelancer who didn't know the aging rules wrote every single aging related effect besides Youthful Appearance, I'm going to guess an editor was responsible because the wording is so consistent.
I would consider the stat adjustments from aging to be penalties. As you age your body deteriorates, right?
Your physical abilities decline. If you no longer have the Strength required to Power Attack, for instance, you can't do it. You're 90 years old, time to put down the axe grandpa.
If you no longer have the Dex to move lithely and Dodge, you can't do it. Sit down grandpa, before you break a hip.
Could you magically remove the penalties of old age? Sure. Will it last? No (usually). I don't see why a few spells can't give the old man back some spring in his step. Remind him of his younger days? Thematically it all fits, i don't see why there is confusion over what's temporary or permanent. Why would you suffer lower stats but not lower modifiers?
It's explained in the OP.
Penalties don't actually lower your stats. The most obvious difference is prerequisites.
Deux... why is this an issue to you? Perhaps if you spelled that out, we might give you some insight.
Starglim wrote: No - no more than ability score increases due to levels are bonuses. The character's ability score actually and permanently changes. To be fair, I need to correct myself on this:
FAQ wrote: At 4th level, a character can increase one ability score by +1. This is a typeless, nonmagical bonus that cannot be changed once selected .. A character can also increase one ability score at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level; it does not have to be the same ability score as the one chosen at an earlier level, and stacks with all other bonuses. (including the untyped nonmagical bonus gained at 4th level)
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