Hi,
I've read several threads on Armor restricting dexterity, and something came to my mind, Could we consider that the Strength modifier could be a maximum Dexterity modifier for Heavy Armor : Let me explain a 18 Strength Character with a 16 Dext could apply a max dex bonus of +4 at best (in this cas +3)on the armor without modifying the ACP.
Do you think it is viable thing to apply or not ? any suggestions is welcome as I planned to play it in my future games.
I do not think that is a good idea because it ignores the fact that some armors are more restrictive than others. The fact that strength is used for carrying capacity should be enough impact for strength on heavy armors.
If you want to be a dexterous guy in heavy armor take levels in fighter for armor training or other classes that give similar abilities.
I concur with Umbranus. Making that change means that Mithral heavy armors are largely worthless and one of the few things unique to the fighter is removed.
Drogos wrote: I concur with Umbranus. Making that change means that Mithral heavy armors are largely worthless and one of the few things unique to the fighter is removed. Technically there are no mithril heavy armors. When mithril they become medium armor, so his proposed rule change wouldn't apply.
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Technically there are no mithril heavy armors. When mithril they become medium armor, so his proposed rule change wouldn't apply.
Technically there are no mithril armors at all as this is just a game and not real.
Thanks for the returns, maybe going to something like, if Strength modifier / 2 for armor is greater than the maximum dex for armor, it replace it : Full Plate on a 18 Strength Character has a maximal dex modifier of + 2 but does not modify ACP and a Mithral Full Plate has a maximal Dex modifier of +4 and modify ACP.
It'll be useful for Paladin for exemple that do not want to dip for fighter armor training ,for the Vanilla Fighter that will still want to have high dexterity, movement and benefit of the ACP redution, and for Fighter Archetypes that loose armor training.
Does it seems more adapted ?
Weight and restrictiveness are two different concepts. Throw ACP in there as well for consideration. Max Dex is a reflection of how flexible the armor is. Consider the Wooden Armor at +3 AC/+3 MaxDex/-1 ACP and 25 lbs. Compare that to the Chain Shirt at +4 AC/+4 MaxDex/-2 ACP and 25 lbs. The Chain Shirt is no heavier than the Wooden Armor but it has higher Max Dex rating. Conversely, it also has a higher ACP rating. You could say that Max Dex is how restrictive the armor is for coarse motion like dodging while ACP is how restrictive the armor is for fine motion like sneaking. In neither case does "weight" enter into it. It's about how the shape of the armor may, for instance, prevent you from enjoying your full range of motion. It doesn't matter how strong you are, if the form of your armor prevents you from raising your hands above your head, forcing it through strength is just going to bend and ruin your armor. This example, mind you, the joints preventing you from lifting your hands up over your head, is an example of ACP in action. The armor may be, otherwise, very flexible material and wouldn't prevent you from ducking and dodging from side to side... just so long as you don't lift your arms up in the process.
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Debbin wrote: Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Technically there are no mithril heavy armors. When mithril they become medium armor, so his proposed rule change wouldn't apply.
Technically there are no mithril armors at all as this is just a game and not real. Technically it remains heavy armor but is treated as medium armor for the purposes of encumbrance and movement. </pedant>
I could see a case that this proposed rule is about encumbrance and movement, so it would be treated as medium for that interaction.
That said, for people without armor training, the ability to move at 30 ft in "medium" is the bigger advantage of mithril.
Kazaan wrote: Weight and restrictiveness are two different concepts. Throw ACP in there as well for consideration. Max Dex is a reflection of how flexible the armor is. Consider the Wooden Armor at +3 AC/+3 MaxDex/-1 ACP and 25 lbs. Compare that to the Chain Shirt at +4 AC/+4 MaxDex/-2 ACP and 25 lbs. The Chain Shirt is no heavier than the Wooden Armor but it has higher Max Dex rating. Conversely, it also has a higher ACP rating. You could say that Max Dex is how restrictive the armor is for coarse motion like dodging while ACP is how restrictive the armor is for fine motion like sneaking. In neither case does "weight" enter into it. It's about how the shape of the armor may, for instance, prevent you from enjoying your full range of motion. It doesn't matter how strong you are, if the form of your armor prevents you from raising your hands above your head, forcing it through strength is just going to bend and ruin your armor. This example, mind you, the joints preventing you from lifting your hands up over your head, is an example of ACP in action. The armor may be, otherwise, very flexible material and wouldn't prevent you from ducking and dodging from side to side... just so long as you don't lift your arms up in the process. Thanks for your point of view and clarifications on the differences.
My view is when you are stronger it is easier to move around with heavy load, to move with something heavy on you, and my view on Max Dex was that the weight is responsible of the limit and the restricitiveness was linked to the ACP.
Heavy Armor Feat permit you to wear a heavy armor, I'm OK with it, but with not enough strength, you will not be able to even move in armor, but if you are stronger than the common people you do not benefit of the strength, it not logic that you are penalized for low strenght and not benefit of high strength... That's my issue...
Yondu wrote: Thanks for your point of view and clarifications on the differences.
My view is when you are stronger it is easier to move around with heavy load, to move with something heavy on you, and my view on Max Dex was that the weight is responsible of the limit and the restricitiveness was linked to the ACP.
Heavy Armor Feat permit you to wear a heavy armor, I'm OK with it, but with not enough strength, you will not be able to even move in armor, but if you are stronger than the common people you do not benefit of the strength, it not logic that you are penalized for low strenght and not benefit of high strength... That's my issue...
Your issue stems from looking at it through too narrow a scope. You segregate the issues and examine them in a vacuum rather than integrating them with the system as a whole. Strength doesn't benefit you wearing more restrictive armor because the restrictiveness isn't going to be lessened by being strong. It doesn't limit your max Dex because it's heavy, it limits you because it is stiff. Imagine the following; you are bound in a pillory. It stiffly restricts your movement. Would being stronger allow you to dodge more effectively while bound in the stocks? Of course not; strength may allow you to break the stocks, but it won't help you utilize more of your dexterity. Likewise, having more Strength won't logically help you apply more of your Dexterity to evade a hit while wearing full plate armor; not so much because it is heavy but because it is stiff. This is why you don't suffer additional penalty for both wearing heavy armor and carrying a heavy load; you only take the worse penalty that applies.
Secondly, the benefit of high strength exists, but in a different scope. The benefit of more restrictive armor is that you focus less on Dexterity and can focus more on Strength which allows you to deal more damage in combat. So a heavy armored character needs just enough Dex to meet the max Dex allowed by his armor, and then can dump the rest of his resources into pumping up Strength. By contrast, character with light armor affords enough Strength just to carry his load adequately, and focuses the rest into supplementary attributes like Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma. You can't just say, "higher Strength doesn't let me use more Dex bonus to Armor, therefore there is no benefit for higher Strength." It's a matter of opportunity cost; saving resources from needing to go into Dex means I have more resources to go into Str which, while not benefiting me defensively, benefits me offensively instead. It's really no different than using a composite bow; if you are under the Strength requirement, you suffer a penalty to attack but if you are over the Strength requirement, you are capped at how much Str you can apply to your bow shots.
Kazaan wrote:
Your issue stems from looking at it through too narrow a scope. You segregate the issues and examine them in a vacuum rather than integrating them with the system as a whole. Strength doesn't benefit you wearing more restrictive armor because the restrictiveness isn't going to be lessened by being strong. It doesn't limit your max Dex because it's heavy, it limits you because it is stiff. Imagine the following; you are bound in a pillory. It stiffly restricts your movement. Would being stronger allow you to dodge more effectively while bound in the stocks? Of course not; strength may allow you to break the stocks, but it won't help you utilize more of your dexterity. Likewise, having more Strength won't logically help you apply more of your Dexterity to evade a hit while wearing full plate armor; not so much because it is heavy but because it is stiff. This is why you don't suffer additional penalty for both wearing heavy armor and carrying a heavy load; you only take the worse penalty that applies.
Secondly, the benefit of high strength exists, but in a different scope. The benefit of more restrictive armor is that you focus less on Dexterity and can focus more on Strength which allows you to deal more damage in combat. So a heavy armored character needs just enough Dex to meet the max Dex allowed by his...
Hi and Thanks for your point of view, I don't think I see thru a narrow scope.
Stiffness is for me linked to ACP, because of the nature of the armor joints, you will be penalized for some action and if you are not trained to wear an armor, penalized in fight.
But if you are train to wear an heavy armor, you will be used to have it on your back( this is reflected by the Armor Training of a fighter) and, Strength help you to compensate some of the issue of Heavy Armor, especially in a fight. For me, ACP and Max Dex are a double pain for a issue, wearing a heavy armor, if we go the same way, you should have ACP for Wisdom Skills like perception, because of the Heavy Armor Helm amper your senses.
Just imagine putting 60 pounds of Steel on your skin, without the proper strength, you will linger on the field, but take 15 - 20 pounds of Muscle you will move faster and it'll be easier to avoid blows...
Do not do this.
Do not give every non-full caster another thing to worry about.
Do not strangle what little power martial PCs have, just for the sake of "realism".
If you want a reality simulator, then Pathfinder is not your game.
Pathfinder is a fantasy game.
Nothing good can come from complicating things, for the sake of complicating things.
blackbloodtroll wrote: Do not do this.
Do not give every non-full caster another thing to worry about.
Do not strangle what little power martial PCs have, just for the sake of "realism".
If you want a reality simulator, then Pathfinder is not your game.
Pathfinder is a fantasy game.
Nothing good can come from complicating things, for the sake of complicating things.
?????
Could you please clarify "Do not give every non-full caster another thing to worry about." ?
I do not want a realistic game, If I would, I will play ROLEMASTER (And I really don't want to suffer that pain again..:-)), I only want to correct an issue in my point of view and I just want to have the advice from other gamers.
The opinion, of this gamer, is that all that you have proposed, is an unnecessary complication that brings more trials, and tribulations, to non-casters, who are already behind in power, and have enough frustrations.
I am just not seeing a benefit, and I am not seeing what the true end goal is.
Maybe, I missed something.
blackbloodtroll wrote: The opinion, of this gamer, is that all that you have proposed, is an unnecessary complication that brings more trials, and tribulations, to non-casters, who are already behind in power, and have enough frustrations.
I am just not seeing a benefit, and I am not seeing what the true end goal is.
Maybe, I missed something.
Hi,
I respect your opinion when you say it is an unnecessary complication, I do not agree on it, as it is not a big complication when I compare it to the different buff spells, but you're right it is a complication.
Concerning the benefit, a Heavy Armor Wielder (not specialy a Fighter) could benefit of high dexterity and it is no longer a dump stat.
The true end goal is to have less standardized character builds at my table, and in a minor way, less optimized characters.
You did not miss something as I do not explain everything.
Being stronger does not change the range of motion that armor permits, and that also limits your max dex. Someone in heavy armor will not be as quick as someone in light armor. A stronger person might be able to outrun someone in lighter armor in real life, but that is different from quickness and range of motion.
Yondu wrote: blackbloodtroll wrote: The opinion, of this gamer, is that all that you have proposed, is an unnecessary complication that brings more trials, and tribulations, to non-casters, who are already behind in power, and have enough frustrations.
I am just not seeing a benefit, and I am not seeing what the true end goal is.
Maybe, I missed something.
Hi,
I respect your opinion when you say it is an unnecessary complication, I do not agree on it, as it is not a big complication when I compare it to the different buff spells, but you're right it is a complication.
Concerning the benefit, a Heavy Armor Wielder (not specialy a Fighter) could benefit of high dexterity and it is no longer a dump stat.
The true end goal is to have less standardized character builds at my table, and in a minor way, less optimized characters.
You did not miss something as I do not explain everything.
The would not change anything unless your players want to optimize less. If they want to do something different they will do so. A fighter if he wants to get the most out of dex can do so anyway. If he does not then he can not use dex and still get a high enough AC so that he is hard to hit while putting out decent damage. Also if he focuses on an additional stat(dex) it makes him less specialized and in this game that normally equates to being less optimized.
But get let's go beyond the fighter and look at a paladin. He can also get high AC, and use lay on hands. Since he already has to use charisma he wont likely go after dex either.
Ranger's are better off spending the gold on mithral armor than spending a feat on heavy armor.
Barbarians have rage which equals more hp. They can also get enough AC to not be hit a whole lot, but if for someone they choose to go with heavy armor they are better off paying for mithral just like the ranger.
I could go on with other classes, but it remains the same. If you want the players to change how they build classes just ask them to play something different.
You should also talk to them about it instead of assuming your new rule will push them into that direction. You might also want to change how you run the game. This is not true in all cases but sometimes players build the same characters out of necessity since any deviation increases the chance that the character might die.
Hello,
Thanks for all these returns, It seems it was not such a good idea, but I must admit, that the restriction in dexterity for armor was a real pain for me.
Not such a good idea, but it's not a terrible one. Might make for a decent feat. If you're *THAT* much stronger than you are dextrous... I don't know. It's certainly reasonable for a +1 to the Max Dex (effectively the same as Dodge, though stacking).
Muscles for Steel
You can shoulder such mighty loads that your weighty armor is merely a second skin to you.
Prerequisites: Str 19, Heavy Armor Proficiency
Benefit: While wearing heavy armor, you treat the maximum Dexterity bonus as increased by 1, to a limit of half your strength modifier, and can run at full speed (x4).
Normal: While in heavy armor you are limited to running at your speed x3.
Special: This benefit stacks with the effects of a fighter's Armor Training.
Optionally: make the increase by 2, but add Armor Training 1 as a prerequisite.
Majuba wrote: Not such a good idea, but it's not a terrible one. Might make for a decent feat. If you're *THAT* much stronger than you are dextrous... I don't know. It's certainly reasonable for a +1 to the Max Dex (effectively the same as Dodge, though stacking).
Muscles for Steel
You can shoulder such mighty loads that your weighty armor is merely a second skin to you.
Prerequisites: Str 19, Heavy Armor Proficiency
Benefit: While wearing heavy armor, you treat the maximum Dexterity bonus as increased by 1, to a limit of half your strength modifier, and can run at full speed (x4).
Normal: While in heavy armor you are limited to running at your speed x3.
Special: This benefit stacks with the effects of a fighter's Armor Training.
Optionally: make the increase by 2, but add Armor Training 1 as a prerequisite.
It's a great idea, maybe I will go that way, thanks a lot
The new D&D 5e system is basically doing what you're talking about, Yondu. It's an interesting take on armor.
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