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4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
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So I am looking at how these abilities, feats and item all interact together.
They are:
Bloodrager Bloodline (specifically Draconic)
Dragon Disciple (the Blood of Dragons and the dragon bite ability)
Eldritch Heritage, and the rest of the chain
Robe of Arcane Heritage
So the Draconic Bloodrager takes SF Perception at lvl 1 and Eldritch Heritage at lvl 3. Giving him access to dragon claws outside of bloodrage.
First interaction question: The feat says it must be a bloodline you don't have. Does this mean, I can not select the same dragon variety as my bloodrager bloodline, or is it just sorcerer bloodlines, so I can have Silver dragon via Bloodrager and Silver Dragon via the feat?
The Bloodrager continues to level, eventually qualifying for DD.
Second interaction question: Does his Blood of Dragons apply to his bloodrager bloodline or does he gain a new pool of claw powers.
Third interaction question: When he gains Dragon Bite, does he only get the bite with the claws outside bloodrage, or will he get a bite during bloodrage.
Fourth interaction question: If he has Eldritch Heritage feat, will Blood of Dragons key off the feat. Meaning his claws will be lvl 5 at 6th lvl, 7 at 7th level and 9 at 8th level (assuming DD is clas choice at each of those levels).
Last one: how does the robes of arcane heritage play into all of this?
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Greetings!
You've asked some good questions. Some of these I've seen before, and some I haven't. I'll flag your post to be transferred over to the Rules Questions forum so you can find the answers you're looking for. This is the PFS forum, and it's really only meant for asking PFS-specific questions.
Good luck in finding your answers!
Thanks Nefreet
I have been looking at the way these interact and my interpretation RAW is as follows.
When someone with Eldritch Heritage (Draconic, lets say silver) takes a level in Dragon Disciple, funny things start happening. First, the feat says:
Quote: For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2 "Sorcerer level" and "For purposes of using that power" are the keys there. Next, Blood of Dragons:
Quote: A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. So DD levels get added to sorcerer levels. Simple right? Well, now you have your DD level counting twice to determine the power of your claws. Later it will effect your armor, breath weapon and wings, with the improved and greater heritage feats.
My problem with this is you quickly have an overpowering Breath Weapon (doing some math, it is a 15th level breath weapon, at level 11)
The Dragon Bite power also does not specify between bloodrager and sorcerer bloodlines. As such, RAW, the bite will be available no matter what source of claws I am using.
The Robe of Arcane Heritage modifies your effective sorcerer level. So it looks as if it will up the feat bloodline.
Now, RAI, the above is somewhat overpowered to me. As such, I don't think it is out of the question in a home game to say the Blood of Dragons would apply to the Bloodrager Bloodline, not the heritage feat. The bite would only be during bloodrage. The robes would still improve the feat bloodline, that is the point of the robes.
Unfortunately, that is the RAI view, and is not allowed in PFS, the only place I have to play this character.
If I missed something, let me know. As I said, this is my interpretation from crossing back and forth between books.
First Interaction: the bloodline you have via Bloodrager is Draconic, the Variety of Draconic is unimportant, as the bloodline would prevent you from using Eldritch Heritage for a second Draconic bloodline,
Second: Blood of Dragons adds your DD levels to your BR levels for determining powers, claws & all.
Third: If he can use claws during Rage, he can use Bite during Rage.
Fourth: Eldritch Heritage, by my reading, would not be able to be taken with a second Draconic Heritage (you already have a Draconic Heritage after all)
Fifth: Final Tally: BR levels + DD levels +4 for powers. If something does not Cue off of the Draconic Heritage then the Robe will not help it.
Dolanar wrote:
Second: Blood of Dragons adds your DD levels to your BR levels for determining powers, claws & all.
What is your source for this? DD only talks about Sorcerer bloodline, not BR's so it wouldn't interact with that. I'm not interested in a debate, just checking if there's been some comment on it since last I checked.
I only used inference based on Sorcerer being a Parent class, I imagine a lot of inference is needed with these Quasi combo classes when integrating old content. As far as I can tell the bloodline is supposed to be essentially the same as a Sorcerer's Bloodline.
so, nothing official, but if they wanted to disallow it to work with all of their old content they could have just said so.
I believe I understand what you're getting at. There is a similar situation surrounding the Animal Ally feat.
Some people claim that if you grab this feat first, and then take levels in a class that grants an Animal Companion, that you get to "double dip" some of your levels when determining your effective Druid level.
Animal Ally wrote: If you later gain an animal companion through another source (such as the Animal domain, divine bond, hunter’s bond, mount, or nature bond class features), the effective druid level granted by this feat stacks with that granted by other sources. I believe this is partly because of the hyper focus on "Rules As Written" that the Internets seem to have bred amongst forum-goers. When I read this feat, and the abilities you're referencing, "double dipping" never enters my mind. If I take this feat as a 5th level Fighter, and then add 5 levels of Druid, I'd think that my effective Druid level would be 7. Those 2 (5 - 3) levels of Fighter would stack with my 5 levels of Druid.
But other people interpret this example to mean their effective Druid level would be 12 (10 - 3 + 5). They believe their 5 levels of Druid can be double dipped, because those 5 levels are part of their total character level, which the feat references.
This sounds similar (to me, at least) to double dipping Sorcerer levels for the purposes of these Draconic abilities. I would not bet too much on them combining in the way that you are reading them, but I don't have a "RAW" answer to show you that they wouldn't. We're simply reading the same text and applying a different paradigm of understanding to them.
EDIT: super Ninja'd.
Dolanar wrote: I only used inference based on Sorcerer being a Parent class, I imagine a lot of inference is needed with these Quasi combo classes when integrating old content. As far as I can tell the bloodline is supposed to be essentially the same as a Sorcerer's Bloodline.
so, nothing official, but if they wanted to disallow it to work with all of their old content they could have just said so.
The thing is they don't have a line saying "this works like the sorcerer's bloodline" or "this counts as a sorcerer's bloodline for ..." Which they do have for some of the abilities, so that it is workable with old content.
So did they leave it out on purpose because they are different and only have to be the same if I cross the two classes? Did they not think to add it thinking people would "know" it's the same? Did different editors work on different parts and some put it in and some didn't so there's no consistency and no one bothered to make it consistent during editing?
This is an area I'm not going to wade into unless it's a home game and GM explains how it'll run or Paizo says something on this. We've been asking since playtest release and still nothing.
Dolanar wrote: I only used inference based on Sorcerer being a Parent class, I imagine a lot of inference is needed with these Quasi combo classes when integrating old content. As far as I can tell the bloodline is supposed to be essentially the same as a Sorcerer's Bloodline.
so, nothing official, but if they wanted to disallow it to work with all of their old content they could have just said so.
The Fly in the ointment, sorry
Quote: Parent Classes: Each one of the following classes lists two classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline). The new classes presented here are all hybrids of two existing core or base classes. and
Quote: If the bloodrager takes levels in another class that grants a bloodline, the bloodlines must be the same type, even if that means that the bloodline of one of the classes must change. Subject to GM discretion, the bloodrager can change his former bloodline to make them conform. I think your thoughts are coming from Alternate Classes, like a ninja can't take levels of rouge. However, a bloodrager can take sorcerer levels, bloodlines just need to be the same (no silver dragon/abyssal mixing).
(Quotes taken from D20PFSRD, dont have books available atm to reference)
Well to be fair, its actually the Dragon Disciple that would need to be updated (previous to these classes no other class had bloodlines I believe). As it is, strictly speaking if a Bloodrager took a Draconic Bloodline, by your reading they would be forced to either change their original Bloodline, or adopt 2 Draconic Bloodlines.
I personally think the RAI is more in line with allowing Bloodrager to stack its BR bloodline with the DD boost.
right or it could give you the sorcerer bloodline powers and not care about the BR's bloodline. and the 2 draconic bloodlines is the same as having the BR and sorcerer levels, they'd both have to be draconic. DD is the same, granting the sorcerer powers, but I believe, you could have whatever BR bloodline you wanted.
actually upon seeing the powers in the PRD not on d20, I don't think the DD would interact at all.
d20 just quotes the PRD doesn't it? but if the PRD helped, cool.
Sometimes D20 doesn't straight copy, or doesn't directly link new info, I may have missed it on d20 but on my first glance, I didn't see that Bloodrager got different Bloodline abilities.
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